Warriors make better monks than monks

[Hung]

There's a disbalance definitely. A warrior's second wind skills allows to strike just after grip. This makes a warrior's grip more powerful than even prime monk's grip. Of course, the situation will change with deathtouch. But that is too far away. For years a prime warrior will grip better than a monk. Also using the same skill it can strike twice per round. Which again makes prime warrior strike more powerful than monk's. There's definitely a disbalance.
Wraithtouch & best damage reduction don't balance this at all taking into account rest of warrior benefits(parry/riposte, ton of hps, early entrench and triple attack).
I understand that warrior has to be overpowered, because SlothMUD is group-orientired mud. But I think disbalance gap in this case is too big.
Maybe give monk some child version of second wind which works only for strike? Or lower deathtouch level?

[DarkArtist]

Shhh...yes, second wind is OP....

Noooo...don't complain about it...

thx

[Magi]

There's a disbalance definitely.

Of course there is, that's the entire point of a multiclass system. I won't attempt to argue that second wind isn't good, because that would be ludicrous. At least for my build, it is the strongest of the warrior prime abilities.

On the other hand, you did conveniently leave the monk prime abilities 'focus' and 'kensai' out of your argument. By your logic, will warriors be getting a baby version of that? Although focusing requires patience, it adds more damage than a quick strike. Unlike second wind, it doesn't even cost movement. Disbalance?

Cheers!

[Hung]

My point was that primary class should do its main ability _far_ better than non-primary. I.e. let's compare warriors and necros. Warrior can cancel order followers lags. But reduced order lag + juju + bonus pet points make necro far better necro.
But it is very disappointing to realize that warriors are better monks than monks. Even if focused grip does more damage than non-focused + strike, double strike per round makes warriors more powerful bare-handed fighters. Wraithtouch is used pretty rarely. And deathtouch is unbelievable far away.
I agree that child version of second wind is stupid idea, just wanted to offer something.

[Hung]

Decent solution would be to allow prime monks make two monk actions(such as strike or stun) per round. Taking into account that prime monk strike is stronger, this solution will keep monks superior in their specialization - bare-handed fightning.

[Magi]

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to monk primes getting a decrease in their strike lag if they prove to be struggling. Currently strike lag is slightly more than a combat round. It could easily be brought equal to 'kick' (for primes only), or perhaps slightly lower. Twice a round without a serious movement or other cost would make the mages cry foul. They spend 25-50 mana a round to do similar damage to a monk double striking.

However, you've got your work cut out convincing the Powers What Is that monks are suffering. We haven't been able to sell the case for bards, and there's rarely one logged in above level 15.

It's not like there's a vast fleet of warrior prime "monks". There's a big opportunity cost for them. As far as I know, there's only one warrior brave/foolish enough to completely eschew weapondam and bust out the fists. Investing all your drachma into monk gear also makes you a pathetic tank compared to all the traditional warriors. (Josiah tanks at -12.0, but could be -13.2 right now if he'd spent drachma differently). And in the end (9x40), you do barely more damage than a warrior with +30 weapondam. The real warrior has AC and doesn't have to spend their action every round striking in order to keep up. On the other hand, they can't rock the solo grip xp. It's a tradeoff that makes sense.

[Hung]

My point is simple. Right now, it is pointless to make monk prime. If one wants to play a monk, he'd better make warrior and put monk second or third. He'll be able to do everything monk can even better than monk(double strike). And also make a decent tank and have others warrior benefits. And this information isn't written anywhere, one has to figure it himself. And when he does(after advancing monk pretty high, going through reroll hell, etc), he may very disappointed. So the most simple solution would be just to write in wiki and in help files: "warriors are better monks than monks".
But more elegant solution would be to buff monks. Two years ago necros were buffed: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3801
Now, I doubt any necro can complain that warriors are better necros. Make similar thing with monk.
About double strikes. There could be new primary monk immediate skill: "double strike". It costs 40 mv. And does 2 strikes. Rough and simple solution.

[DarkArtist]

What do you say to the argument that Monk prime damage reduction enables the monk to deflect damage while still wearing damage gear?

Also doesn't monk prime have some regenerative powers over warrior prime?

I'm a little ignorant of the benefits of monk prime and I appreciate the info you're putting out.

[Hung]

I think if we put all these(including death and wraith touches) on one side. And grip+strike, double strikes, str coming first in stato, massive critical hit on second. It'll make monks, at least, even monks as warriors. While monks should be far better monks than anyone else. Otherwise there's no point to choose em.

[DarkArtist]

It seems like you're obsessing over second wind and not really considering the whole monk picture / not even willing to look at the other benefits of monk.

Honestly, the only remedy to your grievance would be to nerf second wind and I don't see a lot of support for that.

It's not as though there are a lot of warriors out there playing monk style, so it's not a big problem. There also is no paucity of monk characters and it is most certainly a viable prime class. You're not going to convince the admin that monk needs more melee damage.

Are there any existing examples of players who are taking advantage of this situation? Is Josiah grip-striking and double-striking? And if this strategy seems so good to you, why not just do it and play Wa/Mo. It kinda seems like you're comparing Monk prime to something that may not even exist.

[Magi]

Are there any existing examples of players who are taking advantage of this situation? Is Josiah grip-striking and double-striking?

Josiah does. He rarely double strikes in groups, because the movement cost is immense. While soloing, he almost always strikes immediately after a grip. He also casts greater refresh four or five times a tick, and runs out of mana pretty darn fast.

My grip does a little under 500 damage on average, and the followup strike about 150.

Skyv's deathtouch does 1000 damage easily, and probably over 1500 if he bothers to focus. There's definitely reasons to be prime. You can't wave away every monk prime skill and expect anyone to take your argument seriously. Yes, deathtouch requires lots of xp... but right now you're comparing your 2x40 monk to an 8x40 warrior. Try it again with some levels.

[Hung]

Even if monk win at fight opener, they seems to do same or even less bare-handed damage per round than warriors. Which I consider wrong. Not sure about exact number. Supposable, Skyv does 6 attacks with 55 damage and one 200 damage strike, total amount is 6*55 + 200 = 530. While Josiah's attack is 50 damage, and strike is 150, total amount is 6*50 + 2 * 150 = 600. Maybe even more, taking into account warrior's prime massive critical hit. That makes warrior better bare-handed killer of mobs with 5000+ hps. While soloing big mobs is signigicant part of the game.
So here's another suggestion. Add prime monk spell 'Five Fingers of Death'. It costs 100 mana and lasts for 1 tick, so it's unlikely to be used in groups. It makes hands glow red and adds, say, 15(maybe 10 for non-avatar, 15 for avatar) damage for each attack. With it Skyv's round damage will be 6*70 + 200 = 620. Which makes him rightful winner in the maximum round damage contest.

[van]

<contribution>
I'd like to point out that Josiah smells.
</contribution>

However, it would be interesting to get the perspective of, say, Jhereg or Stilgar on this. I'm fairly sure neither of them feels they're overpowered.

[DarkArtist]

I love this conversation apart from the fact that you really don't have numbers. But even if you did, does a comparison of Skyv to Josiah really justify the conclusion that monk damage should be increased? There are 8 classes after all, not two. Do the other six get something too?

I keep thinking it comes down to Warrior is somewhat over-powered rather than that monk is under-powered. What you are really asking for is that Josiah be nerfed down and stop being allowed to benefit from the unbalances as you perceive them. Josiah has always excelled at finding the optimal strategies and making the noobs jealous. I suggest copying his strategies instead of calling them out.

It wasn't long ago Dragoth was on a tirade against Wimpy for taking to such good use the control undead ability, to the point of calling Wimpy a cheater...merely for using his skills to best advantage.

So you have to watch how you approach these things and make sure you're being objective and not acting out of envy. If you continue to harp on the note that Josiah fights better than Skyv unfairly, you won't get what you want.

Instead just present your skill idea as a stand alone idea that has merit, which I believe your idea does and market your idea to a particular coder and try to hit them at the right time. Also it would help to continue to gather data and continue the conversation. Honestly I think at present you won't attract a coder to your idea, but if the conversation continues it can be a seed for future changes. My reason for saying so is that the coder involved would have to dedicate a lot of research time into the numbers to do it right and we're well into springtime.

[Hung]

I created this topic, because of disappointment. I like playing monk style and so I created monk, assuming that is best choice for bare-handed fighting. It turned out, I was wrong. If I'd go with warrior-monk, I'd be great bare-handed fighter and had all warrior benefits as well. That is a big dissapoinment indeed. And, I suppose, many other monks may experience it one day, after learning game mechanics. So I consider it is correct to bring this problem for the public discussions. At least, monks will be warned. And may reconsider making prime monks. And avoid that disappointment.
Again, I am against nerfing second wind. Warriors has to be overpowered. So people choose warriors and there always plenty of tanks available. But monks still should dominate in bare-handed fighting.
About other classes. If their representatives consider warriors to dominate in their primary area, noone prevents them to create corresponding topics and discuss it. However, I really doubt that warriors make best necros or best mages or best druids. It seems to be pure monks' issue.
About attracting coders to an idea. I dont like sales style. Because it is often based on some kind of deception. So I go with direct and fair style, presenting the problem as I see it and offering the solution. I agree, it is unlikely to be implemented. But the reason is not in wrong sales strategy, but because coders are people too. We, players, get fun from playing. They get fun adding features, balancing classes, etc. I guess, they have enough of their own ideas to provide them with fun implementing them for long time. Being programmer, I know how hard is to code something you're not interested in. Especially if that task isn't part of you job, which you paid for, but is part of your hobby project. But...there's no harm in trying. At least, as I said, my fellow monks will be warned.