druid form restructuring

[*Splork*]

It has been strongly suggested to me that we need to restructure druid forms to match those of supps and necro pets. This would mean a stronger prime skill and more unique class and it would also mean remove forms from quite a few players.

What would you guys like to see happen?

I think what is best for the mud, would be to restructure the forms according to position of druid in class order, similar to what we have for necro pets and supps.

Thoughts?

[Dragoth]

Druids have the right to their unique existence without seeing every druid quad and more turning into the same forms he can. Given time and proper management of the forms im pretty sure druid class could flourish and have their identity back.

But after chatting at length online i am starting to agree with Cizin, while some classes do posses certain importance through their location in your class order, other classes are lacking. I am hoping this will soon become a new issue to be adressed after avatar levels progression and druid forms scaling.

[Tuck]

Please add third poll option: I'm not sure.

[Thraxas]

Thought they already were ... actually quite shocked they're not.

T

[jezer]

I don't know about the restructure, I just don't know. But I agree druids have lost there identity.

Moon Aura was prime, but given it's cost to cast and short duration, isn't used much, and now it's non prime. Druids are treated as 2.clerics, the class is mainly picked for regen, and apart from shift size there isn't too much definition as most spells are not used and the pets are crap. I am not so sure that a restructure in orders will give them back there identity.

I have -8.2ac 7 attacks at 11 dam and a blast shifted form.
I have -4.7ac 5 attacks at 17 dam and a strike + grip + counter attacks + critical hits + healing + deathblow + lions/gods as a monk secondary.

If I'm doing something nasty, yeah I'll shift, extra hp saves my life. But yeah, druid seems to be a "watercolor" these days. Nerfing all the non prime players to give it more identity seems a reverse way of looking at it, when in the damage stakes it's an under performer anyway.

If you have to nerf orders to keep it in tune with the game, which I understand, the class should be made more "useful" in a way that benefits everyone. That might mean more skills shifted, such as critical hits, useful supps etc, and maybe a blast spell that works during all hours. heh.

I copied these druid spell stats from the board.

shapeshift 738

dawnfire 25
elemental resistance 22
fog 8
freshwater 88
garden 32
goodberry 45
morning glory 40
preserve food 9

Where is willow wind, canopied arbor, hedge maze, twister, avalanche, sunbeam? We get mass resist fire and cold at level 39? This is nearly our complete list of unique spells after level 20 we are talking about! Unfortunately the new devak system isn't being used much for some reason, thanks for the attempt and trying to do something about it back then. I still need the spellbooks and not many people even know where they pop heh.

There is not a single druid only spell that comparably rates with any other spell usage in the entire game. Everyone could better benefit in this area, not just playing around with forms where yeah you'd expect primes to be bigger and better than others. But identity and usefulness comes in other ways than playing with forms in my opinion - and it benefits everyone.

I haven't voted, I kind of agree form positions should be nerfed for non primes in keeping with the general rules with orders and supplicants, but I will not vote and inflict that on other players unless druid becomes more useful for them in the same breath. If you nerf forms for other players, what do they get from druid other than regen and +mana? No basis to choose the class, especially if your classo has ac classes (and therefore less max mana) in the top 4 positions.

I can't see how a non-prime naga at 4x40 for a druid second would even be worth shifting into compared to remaining unshifted? You sure you want to do this? 1200hp -7.8 +8 dam? Does a 4x40 need this... seriously doubt it. I think at the moment this change would just kill shapeshifting for non primes. Effectively making druid almost entirely useless apart from regen and max mana.

[Rynquald]

Anything I say about this will be incredibly biased. But since this decision will probably be a make-or-break moment for my desire to continue playing, here goes:

While there is an obvious parallel between shapeshift and supp/animate, in that they rely on multiple 40s, cleric and necro are worthwhile second/tert/etc classes even without their pets. Other than the smallish regen bonus, what does druid have without useful forms?

Awaken is much more similar to animate and supp, and it already considers class position. Perhaps it would be better to give druid primes something by making awaken useful (depending on class order) than leaving primes as they are, but making them feel more unique by massively nerfing non-primes.

[Thraxas]

(up front I'll say I dont ever shift ... apart from ferret which on S4 is my biggest available form)

... not many people play Druid prime ... hmm ... lets see what we can do to make it a more attractive prime class ... shall we :

A . make druid prime more powerful / interesting / fun to play / utilitarian
or
B. make druid less powerful for non prime druids.

I dont see the logic of how B will suddenly lead to an influx of new Druid prime chars ... other than Brad in this new 8x40 world I'd guess most of us have 2 chars only (main and valker) ... we've already heavily invested in our main so what change is going to be made to make us all stop and start a 2nd Druid prime main?

Perhaps rather than option B changing druid for non primes the more logical option A should be considered some more ... maybe:
i: Druid Primes can shift in groups
ii: Druid Primes has new shifts only available to them across the range of levels rather than just at the top end.
iii: Driud Primes can order pets while shifted (actually not tried this in years but recollect it dosent work)
Iv: Druid Primes can cast some (stone / sanc / fluid) while shifted
v: etc.

I dont think any of this unbalanced the game ... particularly given the very few Druid Prime chars currently playing that would be affected, but each would add a unique selling point to the class as a prime choice.

T

[jezer]

Been looking around other websites at druid skills.

I'm not so sure druid's need "pets" - but maybe a prime "invisible nature force." It doesn't fight battles, it just watches over the druid, removes poison, removes diseases, gives food and water while shifted, replenish shield of thorns, it may try to turn the circumstances of a fight in the druids favour, aid regen, it may even heal some of my wounds, or refresh them - Depending on the total number of levels. It's really useful for shifting. Maybe this protection force that follows the druid can be "cast" or even sacrificed for.

cast 'hand of nature' %sacrifice???
You feel the hand of nature protecting you.

Example effects based on logic...

The hand of nature takes away your ailments. (PLAYER_IS_EFFECTED_INSOMNIA)

You feel nature rise within you, you feel completed. (Rapid Regen for 2 mins)

A vine violently sprouts up from the ground and explodes with fruit, shrivals and dies.
Get grapes, Eat Grapes.

Gaia rises up against your foe, vines appear entangling %mob. (RANDOM CHANCE)

You feel something leave you.

Also maybe all druids (non prime) should be able to summon an animal to help them in battles. These pets can't be ordered. They appear and assist their master, they don't follow or accept orders, they fight and die. This is to cover for druids lack of blasting ability. The damage is outputted by a temp creature over more rounds. No sanct, no stone, no reporting, no ordering, and maybe they disappear when the mob dies. Animal called grows with levels.

cast 'call animal' wolf
A grey wolf appears from nowhere and leaps to the attack!

The Mob is Dead!
A grey wolf disppears into the undergrowth as quickly as it appeared.

I think druid skills should be "unconventional" but useful, for to be a druid is about wisdom, and wisdom is not so much about power, but using circumstance to work in your favour, this is what it is to be druid. Lets try think out of the necro pets, cleric heals, mage blasting box if we can.

[Toxis]

I hardly ever shift into druid forms when playing Toxis. His combination of powers makes him very strong. But it is nice to be able to shift for a quick kill or kill something that hits hard. Druid is an alternative playstyle, some like it and some don't. I just don't see why not let everyone be able to shift? The thing that I loved about sloth was the ability to get all the skills and spells from each class. That started changing with prime skills and spells, which I like, but I'd hate to make it impossible to use the basic options from all classes (like no good undeads to use cuz necro last, or can't even shift into a halfway decent form because druid last).

1: Druid forms should be more powerful, aren't they already? Or just give them more shift eq... There's a lot of cool shift eq that could be given to them for little ac or hit points.

2: Allow druids to tank. They don't have parry, and that's where a good warrior will always have over. But if you don't want 2000 hp tanks, then let's at least give minotaur shift in with 1000 hp so we can at least have a nice tank when no warriors can be found.

3: I'd love to see druids be able to shift and man up, our frontlines are so weak. Group chaos everywhere, and let's face it, I don't think most druids want to heal anyway . Since most thieves can't stay on frontline, at least druids could. I'm not sure why druids aren't on frontlines more often, is it because their mana is wasted too quickly? One reason why I never shifted in groups is because it's so much better to use mana to heal or blast rather than shifting. So perhaps there could be a form that is druid prime that doesn't use mana, that deals a decent amount of damage, that can stay on frontline for extended periods of time...

4: I think it would be nice if some of the eq was looked at so that bards, thieves, and monks could stay on frontline with at least -9 ac... it's not like thief mobs miss anyway. We're all pretty sick of 1 person on frontline and 10 in backrow because no one can take that punishment. Toxis has -9.8 ac and he still gets pounded on frontline. If you don't have -9 ac forget it, you're in back row.

5: I really liked the idea of autospells for druid PRIMES to give stone (or ironskin) if it falls and you're shifted. Stone (iron), bless (grace), hungry/thirsty, avatar sight, and unsure if any others needs to be added.

-Brad

[*Splork*]

I like the idea of limited spell casting while shifted, however we will probably stay away adding pets. Our thoughts is that we have enough of this style of play ingame and adding another class with this ability is overkill for the mud.

Keep the ideas coming

[jezer]

My druid will be able to frontline at -9 in .5 bill xp. Unshifted. I can get more ac unshifted than shifted at the moment. My monk secondary is better than my druid again because of some new monk eq's. Shifting is a bit of a joke, nerfs were hard. Druids always were amongst the slowest starters and that was when you got better shift forms quicker! So imagine what it's like now. If anything in druid needed a nerf it was phoenix, sea dragon and piasa, and only by hp. Everyone will have 5 attacks at high dam later on. Piasa wasn't over powered, it was probably just too big!

I personally am not interested in shifting in the front line, I'll need food (maybe I could buy rations? Inconceivable!!!!), damage is low, mana runs out. Doesn't do it for me. I don't like healing either What do you like Jezer? Being useful, bug fixes, balance, dead tanks.

Thanks for asking for our opinions before you wielded the nerf scissors anyways splork. I'm afraid it will kill shifting for non primes though unless changes are made.... and the improvements to monk aren't finished yet, ie, low dam 3rd round. Certainly don't want to see this divert energies to quickly when monks were almost fixed.

[Dragoth]

What none of you seem to realize is that shifting is what defines druid class, if you take that away and give it to everybody then there is no need to play a druid prime because as you say there are no other important skills or spells for that class.

You keep saying give them more useful spells and skills and yet see how many people are already druid secondary ? The regen bonus is a welcome addition despite the forms, regen and mana play very important role in this mud and without regen mana is pretty much useless, thats why people with common sense choose druid secondary almost automatically.

And if your forms will now be scaled back too, this only adds to the importance of druid class in your class order, not takes away from it. But immortals still need to consider giving characters with druid in the first four positions a possible way to play druid-style via half-decent forms. If you are druid in your 6th class i dont see why you should shapeshift into anything but a ferret to get your corpse and maybe a frog to breath underwater, which are already quite powerful additions. By making two or three more forms that provide something unique in this way and sticking it further down the druid level line than ferret and frog it will avoid people not caring about druid levels completely if its not in the first 4x40. ( i.e a 3x40 form that can relocate to other continents by using all its mana will make everyone think about putting druid in their class somewhere just to accommodate this form even if all their fighting forms are useless)

Another thing some of you guys seem to not realize is that because forms are now available to everybody in the game immortals can not make the forms more powerful than what they already are, because if they do make them more powerful everyone in the game gets a piece of that action and characters are already very powerful.

If druid forms are made to scale back then it gives immortals absolute power over druid class and they can make it as powerful or as weak as they desire without thinking that this balance will affect the whole mud.

You keep coming up with more ideas but it seems that you are just trying to justify keeping what you already have and going even further by adding new powers to druids, which really does not need to happen.

Yes, currently the weak and unbalanced forms will not be enough to make druid attractive, but it's so easily tweaked by adding an extra attack or giving more Ac to forms uniformly that it beggars belief how easily druid prime class can be fixed and made so attractive that everyone will want to play them just by taking away the ability of everyone to shift into those forms.

[Dragoth]

If i may also suggest another important thing - after every major change to classes abilities defined by its position in your class order, could immortals be kind enough to provide us mortals with the ability to switch positions of the class that is being changed ? But within boundaries of course, so if you were druid 8th, you can only move it 3 classes up to druid 5th and if you were druid quad you can become druid secondary and so on.

Because otherwise it goes something like this ; you choose a class order that is perfect, but then midgame something gets changed by immortals that drastically affects you and you are left in a position where you cant change anything and have lost something drastic due to something that was not your fault.

[Rynquald]

You're quite sure that you alone can perceive all ends of changes aren't you? Since we don't "seem to realize" that all your opinions are flawlessly correct, allow me to counter several of your points.

What none of you seem to realize is that shifting is what defines druid class, if you take that away and give it to everybody then there is no need to play a druid prime because as you say there are no other important skills or spells for that class.

Shifting does define the druid class, true, but notice that the defining aspects of every class are available to non-primes. Some classes have a pronounced advantage as prime, others have a much smaller difference. All the forms are currently stronger for a druid prime than anyone else.

Leaving shapeshift as-is would hardly "take [shifting] away and give it to everybody", rather it would take shifting away from non-primes and give nothing to druids.

You keep saying give them more useful spells and skills and yet see how many people are already druid secondary ? The regen bonus is a welcome addition despite the forms, regen and mana play very important role in this mud and without regen mana is pretty much useless, thats why people with common sense choose druid secondary almost automatically.

If you're so certain that all of the caster/druids picked druid second solely for the regen, why are you so concerned that they may retain decent forms?

You keep coming up with more ideas but it seems that you are just trying to justify keeping what you already have and going even further by adding new powers to druids, which really does not need to happen.

It doesn't? How often do you see druids in groups casting actual druid spells? You appear to be attempting to justify many people having a greatly weakened ability to solo. I'm not sure what your motivation for this could be, so I'll refrain from unflattering speculation.

I genuinely have no idea what chars you play (I'm assuming Dragoth isn't your main char, looking at last player), but I'd be interested to know how much experience you have shifting.

[jezer]

Leave Druids Alone!