Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

[Ker]

You expertly bind the unconscious form of Avatar Ithaqua, God of the Wind.
You gain 59,763,156 bonus experience!
You gain 169,140,992 extra bonus experience!
You received 169,141,000 experience points.

You expertly bind the unconscious form of Avatar Gnoph-Keh.
You gain 35,047,476 bonus experience!
You gain 99,190,968 extra bonus experience!
You received 99,190,965 experience points.

You expertly bind the unconscious form of a white wolf.
You gain 31,860,832 bonus experience!
You gain 90,172,160 extra bonus experience!
You received 90,172,163 experience points.

1 run. No nightmare, petrified armor up, No 1d1 piercing weapon, No golem/aegis on targets, zero preparation, zero problems.

Half of Mystica/Dweb done. Since the reset, majority of Mage's conquest points are from subdues.

Though it is understandable when major prep is done for a subdue and yet it still fails, can be quite stressful.

Impossible task? I think not.

Need to change something because conventional ways are not "optimum"? I think not.

Need to toggle crits off to make subdue easier? Massive crit hit a problem? A problem 7 other classes can only dream of having.

Lel

M

[Gorka]

You don't acknowledge the difference it takes for a player to do a solo subdue on a massive mob, versus you hiding behind Stun. You are not comparing apples with apples. If Stun can go off solo and can show he has a better subdue rate than I do, I will eat my words. But it will be the same.

Essentially your success has come down to rapid killing in a group and RNG, and the fact the areas you have talked about have duplicated mobs which offered you the appearance of more success - like in dragon mount. You got lucky with your petrified armor (50 dam), and your no aegis on targets, and your small sample size of mobs. About the only truthful comparison of what takes place between how you are doing it, and how I am doing it, is the number of "4 complete runs" to subdue an entire area in your last post - which I think was a fairly fair average assessment.

When we remove all the self congratulation and crap from your posts and we actually examine the facts, and Teker can back me up on this... The code works like this...

A warrior has a 10% chance to Massive Critical Hit (Damage x3)
If that fails they also have a further 10% chance to Critical Hit (Damage x2)

If I am wearing all my weapon damage (49) and my dam (25) with my winter blade I am doing...

6d4 +76 = up to 100 damage each attack, 200 damage for crits, 300 for massive criticals.

The window for subdue is 12 hp. This doesn't factor in the other damage like riposte, and ice rays. You got lucky in your Mordi run, it could have just as easily gone the other way. You could have killed the mob more than 4 times in a row.

You also don't acknowledge the "group damage divisability" factor of subduing a mob. If a group has two players, one doing 100 damage (avg), another doing 50 damage (avg)... and the mob has 500 hit points... the success of subdue is higher, because the damage of the players is divisible by the mob hp. But what if that mob has 525 hit points, you will be more likely to fail on that mob, because the damage isn't as well divisible by the mobs hit points. It should be true, some mobs are harder to subdue for some than others on average due to damage divisability. This will also change the group dynamic of subduing... because who attacks first in a group and how much damage they do will effect the outcome. You are trying to compare my solo efforts against group efforts - and it's not a valid comparison. Like I said, if Stun gets different results to mine solo, happy to eat my words.

If massive critical happens 10%, it means you on average you have less than 2 rounds to subdue a mob when it's low health or else you will accidentally kill it. It's an objective fact. And you, are just an ass.

[Ker]

Booohooo, I got so strong, did my own maths in my own head, and now I cannot subdue jack. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Both me and Stun strongly disagree with your bullshit "calculations". Either use a 1d1 piercing weapon or shapeshift. End of story. Don't start suggesting bullshit to a high ranking coder because you are unable to run "optimally" simply because you need a thousand reasons to stay alive in your attempt to subdue.

Other players do not need to suffer from the loss of crit from autokill flag. As if the margin for error to fail the subdue isn't great enough, now we need to police players into making sure autokill flag is off so we can't crit and succeed a subdue? Does this at all sound counter productive to you?

Full of shit Gorka. Cheat your way through the whole game and come crying on the crier because you got too strong. What a ******* _loser_.

Oh right, now I remember why i stay away from the crier. My bad.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

M

[Gorka]

Both me and Stun strongly disagree with your bullshit "calculations"

Old Sloth Code for every one to see...

Code: Select all

   if (dam > 0 && !IS_MOB(ch) &&
      (attacktype >= TYPE_HIT && attacktype < TYPE_SLAM) &&
           !is_list_affected(ch, APPLY_BERSERK))
   {
       if ((number(1,100) < IS_LEARNED(ch, SKILL_MASSIVE_CRIT_HIT)))
            {
                 if(number(1, 100) <= 10)
                 {
                        act_c("$n's delivers a massive blow to one of $N's vital organs.",
                             FALSE, ch, 0, victim, TO_FNOTVICT, CLR_MOB);
                        act_c("You deal a massive blow to one of $N's vital organs.",
                             FALSE, ch, 0, victim, TO_CHAR, CLR_EMOTE);
                        act_c("$n cripples you with a blow to your organs.",
                             FALSE, ch, 0, victim, TO_VICT, CLR_MOB);
                     dam *= 3;
                 }
            }
       else if ((number(1,100) < IS_LEARNED(ch, SKILL_CRIT_HIT)))
            {
                 if(number(1, 100) <= 10)
                 {
                        act_c("$n's delivers a critical blow to one of $N's vital organs.",
                             FALSE, ch, 0, victim, TO_FNOTVICT, CLR_MOB);
                        act_c("You deal a critical blow to one of $N's vital organs.",
                             FALSE, ch, 0, victim, TO_CHAR, CLR_EMOTE);
                        act_c("$n cripples you with a blow to your organs.",
                             FALSE, ch, 0, victim, TO_VICT, CLR_MOB);
                     dam *= 2;
                 }
            }
        }


[Insomnia]

<1088/1088hp 700/900ma 199/393mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Roedrig, Troll Champion.
Roedrig, Troll Champion is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1088/1088hp 695/900ma 199/393mv -%>
|
sub roedrig;get all
Fluffy clouds scud across the sky.
<1088/1088hp 698/900ma 201/393mv -%>
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Roedrig, Troll Champion.
You gain 92755608 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 262515862.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 880/900ma 439/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Klklklpa.
Klklklpa is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1088/1088hp 875/900ma 439/443mv -%>
|
sub klkl;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Klklklpa.
You gain 147065136 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 416222046.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 1120/900ma 167/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Tasha the Blade Mistress.
Tasha the Blade Mistress is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
<1088/1088hp 1115/900ma 167/443mv -%>
|
sub tasha;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Tasha the Blade Mistress.
You gain 133558384 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 377995401.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 898/900ma 442/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Helios, the Sun God.
Helios, the Sun God is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
<1088/1088hp 893/900ma 442/443mv -%>
|;sub helios;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Helios, the Sun God.
You gain 213608112 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 604551223.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Vouhx-t.
Vouhx-t is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
<1098/1098hp 1774/912ma 392/393mv -%>
subdue vouhx
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Vouhx-t.
You gain 88417536 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 250238285.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1098/1098hp 580/912ma 205/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Skerrit, the centaur god.
Skerrit, the centaur god is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
<1098/1098hp 575/912ma 205/443mv -%>
subdue skerrit
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Skerrit, the centaur god.
You gain 137648288 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 389570599.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1042/1098hp 935/913ma 442/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits The Dread Pirate Roberts.
The Dread Pirate Roberts is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1042/1098hp 930/913ma 442/443mv -%>
|;sub rob;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of The Dread Pirate Roberts.
You gain 114841632 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 325023466.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1098/1098hp 657/913ma 442/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Commodore Higgins.
Commodore Higgins is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1098/1098hp 652/913ma 442/443mv -%>
subdue higgins
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Commodore Higgins.
You gain 99151720 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 280618058.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1098/1098hp 1647/913ma 355/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Baraneth, the avatar dragoness.
Baraneth, the avatar dragoness is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1098/1098hp 1642/913ma 355/443mv -%>
|;sub bara
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Baraneth, the avatar dragoness.
You gain 363542144 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 1028892776.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 1855/905ma 124/443mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Kzartaxen, firenewt God of War.
Kzartaxen, firenewt God of War is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
<1088/1088hp 1850/905ma 125/443mv -%>
|;sub kzar
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Kzartaxen, firenewt God of War.
You gain 99476440 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 281537070.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 1740/908ma 443/446mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits The Were-Lord Lupine.
The Were-Lord Lupine is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1088/1088hp 1735/908ma 443/446mv -%>
|;sub lupine;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of The Were-Lord Lupine.
You gain 170066848 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 481321261.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<868/1098hp 1200/906ma 119/446mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Icebeast Kezthall.
Icebeast Kezthall is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
<869/1098hp 1195/906ma 120/446mv -%>
|;sub kez;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Icebeast Kezthall.
You gain 213574784 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 604456894.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1098/1098hp 1145/923ma 445/446mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits a snow lion.
A snow lion is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1098/1098hp 1140/923ma 445/446mv -%>
|;sub lion;get all
You expertly bind the unconscious form of a snow lion.
You gain 112079808 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 317206976.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 2394/914ma 372/446mv 0%>
You pierce an acid golem very hard.
An acid golem misses you with its pound.
An acid golem misses you with its pound.
An acid golem misses you with its pound.
An acid golem misses you with its pound.
An acid golem misses you with its pound.
An acid golem misses you with its pound.
You pierce an acid golem very hard.
You pierce an acid golem very hard.
You pierce an acid golem very hard.
An acid golem is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.

<1088/1088hp 2394/914ma 376/446mv -%>
sub acid
You expertly bind the unconscious form of an acid golem.
You gain 135506480 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 383508903.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1088/1088hp 519/918ma 396/396mv 0%>
You pierce General Oth hard.
General Oth is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
<1088/1088hp 519/918ma 396/396mv 0%>
|;sub oth
You expertly bind the unconscious form of General Oth.
You gain 139391248 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 394503510.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



<1023/1023hp 1004/870ma 167/446mv -%>
Ok.
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits Uhhhl.
Uhhhl is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
<1023/1023hp 999/870ma 167/446mv -%>
|;sub uhh
You expertly bind the unconscious form of Uhhhl.
You gain 40215812 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 113818332.
You have gained an ungodly amount of honor.



Doable... it's all doable...

[Insomnia]

One other idea: make an artifact or a drachma item that will force the opponent to do a report on every hit, or at least from time to time. This won't change anything in terms of player power (we will still have to switch to mage timing and magic missiles in order to subdue mobs in a reliable way), but will make things so much easier.

[Gorka]

If I recall correctly, druids can see mob hp through MSDP while the other classes see percentages, or something like this. Druids also see what type the creature is, which is actually very useful - now that turn undead is somehow the greatest spell in the game (well at least for me damage wise).

[Driven]

Three new potions are in the game now. I have also committed a change that disables massive critical hit on piercing weapons. One new (relevent to this issue) forge has been approved, but I won't be able to code it until next week.

[Gorka]

Unsure if this is one of the new potions... but I don't recall ever coming across it before... and it wasn't on the eqlist, it also had a coloured proc. I get the feeling it's a random pop as it loaded in City of Dis. Unfortunately I wasn't aware the potion might have been new until 5 mins later when I saw the announcement, hence I never figured out what exactly it did, apart from the fact it gave me a disease for 2 mins. When I get another I will post.

PS: Might be a typo on the potion description... writing instead of writhing.

cast 'id' swirling
Ok.
You feel informed:
Object 'swirling potion darkness', Item type: POTION
Item is: MAGIC
Weight: 1, Value: 15000gold, Worn in: TAKE
Apply broken magic to the drinker...
The item has 1 additional magical ability.

<1666hp 290ma 450mv -4.9ac SS VAULTS DO_NOT_TOUCH 37086799831xp -%>
quaff swirling
You choke down the potion and feel your insides writing in pain.

[Driven]

Yea, I'll fix the typo when I get to my computer.

[Gorka]

This swirling potion is random popping on EU in other parts it appears.

It's -6 damage for just over 2 mins.

It doesn't stack, so you can't quaff two and go -12 dam.

Crits were still firing with the potion, hence I believe the solution in play is two fold... potions to reduce damage, and piercing weapons to negate crits.

[jayclimbs]

Rather than verbally kicking the crap out of each other, why not figure out what the difference between Gorka and everybody else is?
It *appears* to entail a couple things, one being playstyle (partnership/solo). But I think Gorka may have some attribute that crosses a threshold and truly does make it difficult to subdue. That doesn't necessitate implementation of a toggle or what-have-you, but if a difference is discovered, would justify tweaking the effects of that difference.
Generally speaking, the cost of upgrades should not entail making anything onerously more difficult than it was before the upgrade; particularly in this case, since the Conquest system is targeted predominantly toward post-9x40 characters.
Gorka and Insomnia, take turns killing some mobs and recording the combat, compare and see if you can identify a key stat-difference.

[Gorka]

It would appear that piercing weapons won't massive critical hit anymore since reboot, which is a change which only effects warriors - as with massive critical hit they had no way to avoid doing 3x the damage 10% of the time... so essentially in regards to subduing there is "equality" amongst the classes now.

However I have posted below an interesting conversation with Belrath below... pity we don't hear more from these types of players rather than just "Gorka" and "Gorka Haters" because he's got a pretty good point amongst all the crap that goes on.

Gorka (gossip): FYI crits still work with piercing
Gorka (gossip): seems it's just massive that don't
Gorka (gossip): so no change to thieves
Belrath (gossip): nods
Gorka (gossip): warriors are getting triple damage on massives, (10% chance) which meant subduing was
difficult
Gorka (gossip): just having crits levelled the playing field
Belrath (gossip): for some reason I'm thinking we are approuching this whole subdue-thing wrong way.
making poisons etc to make us weaker to be able to subdue better.
Whatta (gossip): yeah. should group with weaker hitters instead.
Belrath (gossip): 'oh no - I'm too strong to subdue this spider - I must take some poison to get disease
to make me weak so I dont overkill it'
Gorka (gossip): stuff grouping
Gorka (gossip): open to other ideas
Gorka (gossip): seems reasonable to me a fighter can control the force that they use
Gorka (gossip): sloth is kind of coded in a way that everything is max
Belrath (gossip): and the smaller the mob the easier the subduing should be
Belrath (gossip): the whole subdue-code should be re-written. now that it has become such a big part of
the game. atleast that's what I think
Gorka (gossip): subding every mob, is probably an equally stupid idea, but gives us something to do
Belrath (gossip): its awesome idea and fun. but...yeah
Belrath (gossip): I have no problems subduing bigger mobs. them smaller makes big issues
Gorka (gossip): yeah, personally I think not having control over your power needing fixing
Belrath (gossip): indeed
Gorka (gossip): the way it's been "fixed" is questionable, I agree
Gorka (gossip): what's it like subduing as a monk?
Gorka (gossip): I actually find it easier, I subdue in handdam
Gorka (gossip): holding a weapon
Belrath (gossip): works just fine when I switch to a piercing weapon in the end. and the mob is atleast
1M, below that makes things harder. below 10k stupidly hard
Belrath (gossip): and I have not been able to subdue below 5k mobs yet
Gorka (gossip): hmm, if there were some way to set your power level perhaps
Gorka (gossip): I mean fighters do it in training, it's called sparring
Gorka (gossip): to get the small mobs bel, you can chuck spirital hammers at them from next door
Gorka (gossip): try it on a hamster
Belrath (gossip): I'm not going to try to 'bend' things. if I cant subdue them, I wont. I move on
Belrath (gossip): it feels stupid to me and I move on
Gorka (gossip): a subdued hamster would be like 1-10 conquest points
Gorka (gossip): yet I agree, probably harder to do than a bigger mob

[Gorka]

Although it was me that originally suggested placing in game "a potion of weakness" - it's been added to the game in such a way even I doubt I will even use them. The potion was meant to complement the setting I wanted to turn off all critical hitting. I firmly believe that fighters should be able to adjust their power level. I mean we do it when playing with children... when sparring in boxing... but in sloth it's like it's just all hardcoded to be max damage - and really that's all we needed until the subdue thing came into the game. Sorry Zuzu, no one cares much about 4th of July redcoats...

I mean I'm not complaining about the new bandaids that have at least levelled the playing field, I'm thankful for them, but all the same, the way the subdue system is working isn't perhaps optimal. I don't mind technical solutions as a player... what I don't like is when the game doesn't give me options... like the way xp is currently stacked towards grouping when I just want to solo and avoid all the crappy clan/player politics, or inability to control my power when subduing... I don't like it when the game makes dumb decisions for me... making dumb decisions should be a player privilege. You take the ability to make decisions out of a game, you take the skill and the fun out of it. I want to be able to control my hitting power. I want to control when I use evade capture and chuck back webs... etc

Here are some of the less than "optimum" issues...

Can't subdue ethers - should there be a mechanic change?
Subduing tiny mobs is often harder than bigger mobs. (Belrath)
A good number of mobs on the area cards aren't designed to be killed. (Insomnia)
There is little way for a player to control their power or dial it back. (Gorka)
Without seeing mob hitpoints, the player skill to subdue is removed and it all becomes about dumb luck and RNG. This is especially a problem with large mobs who go several rounds of fighting while on 0% health. (Insomnia)

I know a lot of players are currently focusing on the areas with large mobs... where there are more points. But I've played around a bit... and if you want to get a feel for how kind of kinky the system is for subduing... go to king's bazar on BH. There are heaps of small mobs, which although there are techniques to do the job, the rewards for the amount of work, doesn't make sense. You are either shifting, magic missiling, or chucking hammers at very small mobs without great success, and then you get like 15 conquest points - when oddly a good 20m mob turns out to be easier and less stuffing around than making hammers, walling mobs, and making nightmares. If this is the case, I think it's fair to say, the system is kind of kinky. It's great to have something to do at the moment, but all the same, it is the truth.

[Gorka]

Thought I'd chuck this idea out there, it doesn't address all the issues... was just thinking about Belrath's point about how silly it is we have to make ourselves weaker to subdue something we are far superior too. What if player attributes such as STR/DEX/INT/WIS/CON/HIT/DAM were chucked into a formula to produce a subdue index, and that index gets compared to the index of the mob you are trying to subdue... and if your index is superior to that of the mob, success could a percentage - based on how superior your subdue index is to the mob and the condition of the mob. This would solve the issues related to smaller mobs being almost harder in some cases to subdue than mobs many times the size. From a theoretical point of view, also makes more sense...

The idea is still sloth - because it essentially comes down to a percentage chance... but indirectly skill and hard work, because it's using the attributes you develop as a player to build a stronger subdue index. In the case your index is less than the mob, obviously it would work somewhat as per it is at the moment.

This would be only one part of a complete solution, but it would help spending (x) hours running kings bazar for like 10k conquest points. I'm not serious about this idea, just putting it out there as something more better perhaps, something more "optimal." At some point, yes I will subdue kings bazar - as dumb and pointless as it is compared to the other ways to get points quicker. I'm just coming from the same angle I am always coming from... how can things be better - even if you don't agree with my ideas.