Bards' blast, spell dam and spell saves

[Hung]

Greetings,
Is bards' blast(flames of midnight, cry of avatars) affected by spell damage and/or spell saves?
I've heard various opinions on subject.

Thanks.

[*juggleblood*]

My understanding was that spell damage wasn't intended to affect the damage. Only charisma.

[Teron]

I heard that spell dam doesn't work on bard songs.

-saves also doesn't seem to matter, because I saw no difference from maxing charisma and -saves. I do see a -save proc on a blats song once in a while, maybe once in 20 casts.

[*teker*]

Different songs have different save types. It looks to me like the appropriate APPLY_XXX modifier is used when calculating the saves on songs. Charisma is also used. Spell bonus is not used when calculating damage.

[Hung]

Thanks for looking into it, Teker. Sorry I didnt understand - what is APPLY_XXX modifier?

[Teron]

When I asked Splork a month or two ago, he actually said that -saves did not apply to blast/channelling bard songs, and he promised to look into it. That's the last time I heard from him.

[*Splork*]

It was actually quite a few months ago and thats the last anyone heard from me

[*teker*]

Thanks for looking into it, Teker. Sorry I didnt understand - what is APPLY_XXX modifier?

Sorry that's codespeak for items that modify player attributes. I was trying to say that if an item modifies the appropriate save, it should be taken into account when the bard song is cast. But...

When I asked Splork a month or two ago, he actually said that -saves did not apply to blast/channelling bard songs, and he promised to look into it.

I just looked at the code again and it turns out it doesn't look at the caster's save modifiers. It's looking at the victim's save modifiers only. The caster's charisma is taken into account instead of their saves value.

[Teron]

The caster's charisma is taken into account instead of their saves value.

Does it mean that if I have +20 charisma, it thinks I have -20 saves and increases my damage accordingly?
Or the actual "taken into account" could be that I get maybe -2-4 saves out of 20 charisma?

How exactly does it work?

Thanks.

[*teker*]

Does it mean that if I have +20 charisma, it thinks I have -20 saves and increases my damage accordingly?

1 charisma point is equivalent to -1 saves when it comes to songs. If the victim fails the save, they take full damage. If they pass they take less (usually about 50%). That's the same way most damage spells work. It's an either/or type situation and not a sliding scale. There's still some randomness in the damage calculation (die rolls) so you won't see the exact same result each time.

[Teron]

So, practically, a bard with +20 charisma has pretty high chances of making the saves?

Why am I not seeing the -save color code as often, when fighting level 1 mobs at coliseum, then?

Does it mean that the charisma saves are already taken into account, and the color code is for the regular saves?

Also, if bard is capped at 20 charisma at 1x40, isn't it a bit low? I mean, ma 5th has 19 saves cap. a 5x40 bard has 24 charisma cap.

Thanks a bunch for clarifying this for me/us.

[*teker*]

So, practically, a bard with +20 charisma has pretty high chances of making the saves?

I would expect it to be the same as a mage with -20 saves. I haven't spent much time in the coliseum so I'm not sure what sort of success you would expect to see with those numbers.

I don't think the code applies save color to songs. I don't see it in cry of the avatar, anyway.

Also, if bard is capped at 20 charisma at 1x40, isn't it a bit low? I mean, ma 5th has 19 saves cap. a 5x40 bard has 24 charisma cap.

The cap formulas for saves and charisma are fairly different. Both are based on class order but saves cap is higher. Charisma cap rises with number of 40s but saves does not.

[Teron]

Yeah, I've done the math in the other bard suggestions thread and I guess the amount of charisma is ok.

The problem is, though, that bards' -saves eq has no effect on it. Could this be improved?

Thanks.

[*juggleblood*]

Dude, you're basically asking to nerf cry of the avatar. I don't want my cry to depend on my spellsaves. My spellsaves cap is like 12. Think about it, using charisma for both the save and damage means that the bard can focus on charisma and AC. I think you're crazy for wanting it to depend on spell save. It's a bard song, not a mage spell, hence the term "SPELL_saves".

[Teron]

I was asking if adding up those saves would work.

If the only way to make it work is to detach charisma and saves (ie, -saves won't be buffed by charisma), then sure, don't do anything.