Thoughts

[blackmore]

I've been 4x40 for awhile now, and thought I'd throw out some ideas.

Once you hit 3x40 or 4x40, most classes don't give you anything of value other than being filler levels, with the exception of a skill or spell here or there. The amount of power increase is just painfully slow. You end up bogged down for months with your abilities not really changing at all. If I get a level a week, which is about 1b xp for upper levels for those classes, it takes me 2.5 months to get 10 levels, and in that time, levels 31-40 of a class might give me 1 stat or skill that improves my character's solo or group power - and that will slow down as I reach the upper levels of 5x40 to less than a level a week.

Can we level avatar levels sooner? Most of our increased power will come from avatar spells and skills, but getting to that power is completely draining. Seeing how many levels Zuzu has on me, then seeing he's only av 15 is disheartening.

Is kill history increasing the diversity of areas that are being hit? If it isn't, all it's doing is slowing down levels, and levels are painfully slow as it is. I haven't spent too much time playing around in the the areas that just had xp bumped, but before this happened, even with the kill history, the good xp areas were the only ones worth hanging out in. As many areas as the mud has, there aren't a lot of areas where the xp is 75% of my favorite areas, making it worth my time to head out and run a new area once kill history kicks in.

We tried to 4 man chop last night, and we could only kill 1 town mob or 1 maw at a time. Part of this is because we don't have the avatar attack, most of us didn't have haste, few people have damn, etc, but we were a good group (Katie, me, Zuzu, Acme), and it wasn't even close to being worth our time. That used to be THE way to gain xp for avatars.

I know this is more of a personal thing, but can oghams be changed to the caster + 1 other like song of the mist? It's annoying to be soloing and have to take point, and if I'm in a chat group and soloing, I can't use oghams at all.

[Cizin]

I have few suggestions you might be willing to consider.

1. you should auto raise your prime skill (dex for thief for an example) at 1x40, 2x40 etc. Other skills might be raised by eq only.
Would add real diff between 1x40 and 3x40 and 8x40 chars

2. more 4x40, 5x40 etc eq

3. Give prime clerics more healing power ! You restores should be more classo dependant!

4. Give prime monks better dam reduction and crappy saves vs spell/breath/etc

5. Give mages better MR and less HP.

[Thraxas]

1. you should auto raise your prime skill (dex for thief for an example) at 1x40, 2x40 etc. Other skills might be raised by eq only.
Would add real diff between 1x40 and 3x40 and 8x40 chars

very nice idea, there should be some definate and substantial reward for each and every 40 a real well done for getting there celebration rather than just a chorus of grats and sense of satisfaction. Of course +40 dr for each 40 gained would just be boring ...

Maybe give us the chance to buy the prime stat for the same cost as the 40th level so similar to S3:5x40's buying stats but scaled costs as we progress and maybe only from 5x40 so at a similar level of progression as on S3 and only 1 per 40 so a max of +4 prime stat before finishing av levels (+maxstat of course) (I cant see imms backdating stat increases to 1x40 for all of us but maybe I'm wrong ... )

T

[jezer]

Good post Blackmore. Given your experience playing sloth, your comments hold a lot of weight. I agree we need the avatar levels to get the xp for the back 4x40.

[*Splork*]

Great thread and Im reading it every hour at work. We have some ideas in mind and are bashing them about but I am against giving all avatar levels out before a person reaches 8x40. I strongly believe that the last Avatar levels should not be able to be leveled until a player has reached the pinnacle of all his other classes.

We will figure something out, Im sure.

Splork

[jezer]

I strongly believe we should start the game as 9x40 and level backwards until level 1 prime, where we get our limited edition newbie leather trousers.

[Dragoth]

Exactly the same thoughts as me blackmore, there's just too many levels and too much grinding and very little happening when you actually get the levels. I have actually proposed some sort of reward for every level 40 eons ago but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears

[jezer]

Yeah, the vibe I'm picking up is "they are listening" but they are just going to do what they want. You can see it in Splork's post about deathgrip, somehow they have deviated to hitroll? I'm like how the heck did they get there out of all this information! An then on getting avatar levels early, instead of "logic" we get "faith" in the belief it should be the way it is. It's not looking good, but still early days.

[Spink]

Yeah, the vibe I'm picking up is "they are listening" but they are just going to do what they want. You can see it in Splork's post about deathgrip, somehow they have deviated to hitroll? I'm like how the heck did they get there out of all this information! An then on getting avatar levels early, instead of "logic" we get "faith" in the belief it should be the way it is. It's not looking good, but still early days.

I don't know why I feel the need to say something about this...I really shouldn't bother.

The past few days have been the absolute best mortal/immortal interaction that I've ever seen from sloth. I've been very encouraged by what I've seen, and I'm grateful to both the imms and the experienced players for making some good steps forward. I feel more justified in voting on TMC for a truly positive experience.

In the other thread, you can see that the "wimpy grip" phenomenon has been examined, its cause has been identified, and changes are going into effect. In addition to this, more changes with regard to +hit are in progress, an issue which hadn't even really been griped about.

To me, in your position, this is icing on the delicious cake that is a 2/3 reduction in "wimpy grip" occurrences. To you, however, it appears to be a failure to address an unrelated and far more complex problem.

[jezer]

Your right Spink, interaction has been good.

Splork said yesterday he would talk about his conversation with Krom in regards to gripping problems. I guess I was expecting something like, yeah we are gonna work on the damage dice and wimpy grip, instead the post is about this left field TO_HIT stuff? I was like, what the! As the damage dice was not mentioned I assumed the approach is going to be "fixing to hit" which indirectly means more damage, and the hand dam grip multiplier system which kind of see's newbie's "luck out" won't be changed. Not to mention the 3rd round doing less damage than regular attacks. I understand TO_HIT goes a way to fixing wimpy grip. Splorks post was not what I expected at all...

Past events have made me cynical. Guilty as charged. I did say early days... I still have some faith. If I prove to be wrong, I'll apologise, I've seen hope squashed to many times. It starts with them "listening", and then just doing random stuff... it feels like history repeating at the moment.

I started the "How to deathgrip hamsters?" Thread in December 2009. Every day I have played sloth since then I've lived with these problems, so cut me some slack.

[*Splork*]

Im not going to sit here and go back and forth with a resentful and dissatisfied player.

I posted what I had time to post and what I knew we were going to change. Krom clearly pointed out to me, with numbers, that monks do not need much help in the damage area but could use some help actually hitting, which I agree with.

He can post further on this matter.

As for deathgrip, it may be adjusted slightly but do not expect anything miraculous to occur with this skill. Third round issue definitely should be looked at. Monks are not thieves, their opening move will not be treated as such.

We will continue to make improvements on the game, especially those pointed out in a nice and clear manner.

Enjoy ,
Splork

[Toxis]

What about a badge that attaches to a location not used, maybe on body or robe or something, that either improves with each 40 or is popped on a solo mob appropriate with that prime (ie thief badge pops on a thief solo mob appropriate with that level). Each increase is a slight bonus, but more importantly a decent bonus for those 40's where you're really not feeling any power... such as is the case at 5x40 or 7x40. I think it's kinda funny cizin isn't even leveling 20 av yet but ok.

Example of Mage Badge:
1x40 = 5 spelldam
2x40 = 10 spelldam
3x40 = 10 spelldam +5 mana
4x40 = 10 spelldam +5 mana +1 marg
5x40 = 15 spelldam +7 mana +1 marg
6x40 = 15 spelldam +10 mana +10 hp +1 marg
7x40 = 20 spelldam +10 mana +10 hp +1 marg
8x40 = 25 spelldam +15 mana +15 hp +2 marg
9x40 = 30 spelldam +20 mana +20 hp +3 marg

The bonuses might be too high for this example.. but when you think about how much it actually adds... shrugs... it seems really hard to get all that exp anyway and it's taking forever to obtain those levels, I think it fits ok.

-Toxis

[jezer]

Thanks for looking at ALL the monk problems. I'm not bitter and resentful about the past. I am a tenacious campaigner, I've fought hard to see druid bugs fixed - after documenting them, I've supported all improvements to bard, and now kept the pressure up on these monk things. I regret having a break from sloth when new druid pets were being worked on. I figure if I campaigned hard then, we might have those implemented too. They were going to be "useful" not over power, I really liked Chobbs approach, I don't know what happened? I've never campaigned much at all to improve the damage of death grip, it mostly been about wimpy grip and low level gripping. I accept death grip at high levels of hand dam at the moment should be adequate, albeit harder at the start for newbs to make something with it. I can't find pure splork grip mobs over 300k non aged at 16 hand dam, yet my xp required to level is nearing 1 billion.

I don't know what can be done if avatar levels are not opened earlier. I can imagine what it's like as a player leveling over 30 hex levels and not seeing a single increase in damage. Figure I'd loose all interest. I'm normally a person of ideas, but fixing that problem without opening avatar up has me stumped. Players hardly gain anything from the last 3 classes, and yet these are the biggest and hardest to level. Since the invention of clasps and runes, I'm already running out of limbs to hold nice equipment.

[Dragoth]

Note: This is not a criticism but more of a constructive suggestion.

There needs to be a timely reinforcement of player's interest in the game by providing them with new and interesting goal-posts besides such constants as levels and ingame EQ.

Why sloth3 worked so well in this regard as i have already mentioned before, is because it simply had its goal-posts less spaced out than what we currently have in sloth4.
Sloth3 had fewer levels so it needed less reinforcements to make the game interesting and involving and yet it had exactly the same amount of reinforcements as sloth4 does with its 8x40 system and possibly more when you consider lack of chopping and Lyme as a 3x40 goal post. When changing to this new system this had to be considered.

Yes, maybe anyone below and at 3x40 does not critically need further reinforcements as the levels do not required mad amounts of exp yet, however without Lyme and chopping to strive for before 3x40 the player is getting pretty worn out from the repetitive tasks and if you are not a necromancer and do not get new pets at 3x40, nothing new awaits you at 3x40 ,the road to 4x40 is very boring indeed.

Why i love necromancer and cleric class is that pets grow with level, any skills that increases it's power with your increased levels is a goal-post which works very well. Necro's and clerics have a lot to look forward to if their pets are properly balanced. Druid should have been the same, but currently the forms and shapeshift EQ are NOT balanced enough to provide an interesting game-play.

My thinking here is pretty simple, i think that every class should have at least one skill ( class defining ) that either increases its power with total levels and a skill/spell that starts working at 2x40 and maxes at 4x40. As an example Clerics could get restoration at 2x40 ( restoration removed for non cleric primes ) and 10hp bonus to all healing spells for every level 40 that they get untill 4x40 and 5hp bonus after 4x40, mages get frostbolt at level 2x40 and could get a 10hp bonus to their blasting spells with every level 40 untill 4x40 and 5hp bonus after 4x40. Warriors should have riposte no sooner than 2x40 and increased chance with more levels and 1 weapon_dam for every level 40, thieves should have 3xstab no sooner than 2x40 and increased chance with total levels and 5hp bonus to stabs every level 40. Monk's should have focus at 2x40 and increased hand damage roll with every level 40. Well you get my drift..

That way you are both promoting leveling and enhancing class defining skills making differences between prime classes more obvious.

As for other time-fillers, chopping should be brought back with full force, it was always an important part of sloth which gave below 3x40's the will to strive for 3x40. At level 1 avatar, there should be another class defining skill for every class that would now increase its power when you level from 4x40 to 8x40.

P.S This is NOT about increasing player power, i DO NOT care if i get any class boosts if this is implemented, all of the above is only due to my strong belief that the game and certain classes in particular need to become more progressive and as a result more involving.