Conspiracy or State's preparing for the worst?

[Sheng]

Central Planning works in China? China sets record growth numbers? Business is booming in China?

Uh huh. When the government has total control of the media, how hard could it possibly be to set new records and have a booming economy year after year? You don't even need factories, just a central news agency with a government mandated script.

You really think China would admit they have a problem? The word 'problem' barely exists in their language; it's synonymous with 'question.'

[jezer]

I can't believe you guys point the finger at political systems and blame them for there roles in world turmoils. It's the greed in man that's the problem. Communism actually has some great ideas. There is no perfect political system... because there is no selfless man...

This talk going on about freedom is crap as well... once again... personal freedom is amoral... it's both good and bad, and it's working out is decided by man. The world situation is not solved by man having more freedom... when he would exercise this freedom against others because of his selfishness.

It all comes down to this... you've been behaving like a piece of crap trying to gain advantages over everyone around you, you've made it a dog eat dog society because your all full of your self importance over everyone else. Blame Obama, blame Bush, blame communism, blame conservatism... but when it comes down to it, it's all about the attitude you've been having and your "rights" to crap over other humans to your own advantage. What ya sowed you reaped... enjoy dessert.

Any other excuses?

[reboog]

jezer: I think we've had this conversation before. Greed is everpresent. You can't get rid of it. It's here during the boom years, the bust years, always and forever.

I agree that the political mudslinging is stupid and pointless.

[Weasel]

wow Jezer. just... wow.

[Medios]

So if greed is so rampant, then how does letting these "greedy" rulers decide more of your life help.

Do you think that government should decide my life? Should they force me into a job determined by some government test? Should they tell me where I can go and who I can see? Should they tell me whether I can have children or not? Should they tell me I shouldn't drink alcohol or smoke cannabis?

Explain to me how any of these decisions negatively affect your life. You want to tell me what to do to save yourself from decisions? The principle is the same no matter where you are. When a small percentage of people must work to support the majority the system will collapse. It happened in Rome. Price controls also do not work. You cannot take the fruits of one man and give them to a non-producer. This creates a moral hazard where everyone feels entitled to things that they should have to gain. The end result of a welfare state is much worse than the "poverty" from lack of government.

To Edd

I am deeply troubled that our country has went so far from our Constitution. I fear that one day if the people do not stand up to the Federal Reserve that we will all be slaves. USA media is obviously controlled and manipulated from both sides towards the common goal. One world currency and no country will be able to stop the multinational army. We are not headed into this utopia socialist state that everyone thinks. It has become a fascist state where anyone questioning authority is immediately attacked. They will legally start a world war if we disobey.

[jezer]

[quote="Medios":105see2o]Do you think that government should decide [color=red:105see2o]my[/color:105see2o] life? Should they force [color=red:105see2o]me[/color:105see2o] into a job determined by some government test? Should they tell [color=red:105see2o]me[/color:105see2o] where [color=red:105see2o]I[/color:105see2o] can go and who [color=red:105see2o]I[/color:105see2o] can see? Should they tell [color=red:105see2o]me[/color:105see2o] whether [color=red:105see2o]I[/color:105see2o] can have children or not? Should they tell [color=red:105see2o]me[/color:105see2o] [color=red:105see2o]I[/color:105see2o] shouldn't drink alcohol or smoke cannabis?[/quote:105see2o]

It's always about you isn't it... See with that attitude your no different than these politicians you don't agree with, legislating there own desires... the wall street fat cats hooked on money... different outworking, different circumstances... same attitude. You talk of freedoms and liberties, but it smacks of your desire to just do what you want... that's just unadulterated selfishness... There will be a price if you choose to live your life like that. I think your example of Rome is perfect. This fairytale has been worked out before, just substitute Rome with America. It's just a dream... and it's no utopia... true strength actually comes through character. Mother Teresa, Ghandi... these people died hero's and gave up themselves for others... your Rome people who chased your dream, just crapped out on the fruit of there own moral decay... talk about history repeating.

Factual Comparisons of America and Rome would be interesting to explore actually. Style of Government, Motivations, Outcomes etc etc

Your example about the rich giving to the poor not feeling right, only serves to expose your own selfish feelings. Some people do this willingly without bad feelings! If you can conquer this, your actually a bigger man than you were before. I dare ya! Sure other people will never be like this, but why should this be a reason for you to give up and be like them? I'm not talking socialism or communism here... I'm talking about personal character.

[jezer]

[url:1in90217]http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0910-10.htm[/url:1in90217]

This article talks about comparisons between America and Rome, mainly in regards to area's relating to foreign policy... I haven't looked hard... but in any case... I'll admit there will be huge differences in how "things are taking place." However I would argue that the attitudes that bring these calamities are actually the same. Arrogance, Pride, Selfishness, Greed etc. It's happened time after time in history, the mighty collapse under there own weight, falling short of the very principals they said they wielded.

Why can't we learn from history... it's not about being great... and trying to be great only ends up undermining what we say we stand for. In the end each person can only stand on the merits of there own character, not what they achieved and who they conquered, and how rich they got.

[Tap]

Jezer,

You are truly a dingleberry. You have no idea what your'e talking about. Charity is one thing but that's why it's called charity. I'll admit class envy is a big problem in the US and perhaps all over the planet however, as someone who makes less than 40k a year, I don' care to have someone else give me "stuff". It's all in how one is raised perhaps, but I don't fall into the entitlement mentality. I'd say a lot of American's fall into the same. That is what is making this a powder keg. You have the limited few wanting and demanding to be "given" money, privilieges etc etc. It will only last so long before people will stop giving. That's why now as we speak 20+ states are positioning themselves to secede from the union. There are al ot of America- bashers now, like before, and they are all coming out of the wood works like little roaches. Over here in the states we call it penis envy, playa-hatin etc, Point being, the ones that like to bash US do so, because Americans have enjoyed the freedom and liberties that most of the world have don't have a clue what it's like.
Now that Americans are starting to wake up and realize what is happening and the downward spiral that we are headed for..well...I don't want to go down that road just yet. I'm confident that if and when the time come, America will once again unite and defend herself from the enemy, even from within.

[jezer]

I understand what your saying Tap. There are kind of two problems... greedy people and lazy people. Whats the point in greedy people giving over there wealth to lazy people...? Essentially both parties are at fault and the common fault is selfishness. The greedy person must learn to give. The lazy person must learn to work. Both are as bad as each other.

This is kind of "dog" capitalism seems to be biased too... it favors the hungriest and self serving mouths, it builds class divides until you have the extremes like you have now. You can't really blame capitalism though as only humans have morality and it's a problem of selfishness. As much as communism goes against the grain of this, it doesn't work either because people are still the same. It's not about government... it's about the morality of your people.

I see America as having a morality problem, and no bailout, or governmental system is going to conquer that. Socialism/Communism is not going to work either... because at the end of the day the majority of your people still have a selfish attitude problem, fueled by years of crap.

See the words America needs to kick around at the moment is community, brotherhood, respect, humility, sharing, caring... instead you got people calling for more freedoms? That's nonsense against this problem... that's a truck load of crap! That's a continuation of the vicious cycle of "rar rar that's not fair, I want that, I demand my rights" etc

Unless you get together and unite and rebuild your communities... Quite often unity comes in the midst of the aftermath of disasters. Maybe the best thing that can happen to America at the moment is a total collapse and a foundation rebuild.

[Poggle]

Jezer, your position seems to be that ambition is bad. (greed)

But also, lack of ambition is bad. (sloth)

So are you saying there's a perfect middle ground where all people should be? I think so...it's in line with your social ideas.

So you're arguing for homogenization of the human race, as well as arguing for a complete change of human nature.

By removing self-interest, you essentially remove all interest and turn people into insect-like drones.

All actions would be dedicated to maintaining the community, maintaining the status quo, keeping everyone happy and comfortable...but there would be no opportunity for individual creativity, no opportunity for pursuing individual interests.

It just doesn't work, because the foundation of human thought really is in the self. If you want to figure out how to make someone else happy, you pretty much have to start by thinking about yourself.

What makes me happy? Food I like to eat? Compliments? A well-paying job that's also fun? A house to live in? Oh, maybe I better help build them a house.

And why do you even want to do this? Because it's the right thing to do, right?

Sure, but how do you define the right thing to do? Someone told you what was right, you weren't born with that sense. They also told you that doing good things was something to be happy about. So voila, you do good things because they make you happy. If someone had taught you your whole life that the only way to be happy was to keep your left index finger on your right elbow, you would friggin do it every chance you got.

And by the way, when you argue for a focus on community and pooling of resources, you argue for communism. That is communism. So when you say communism isn't going to work, then go ahead and advocate communism, it's a bit disconcerting.

So: bottom line. Human beings operate on self-interest. That's how we're built, that's how we hit the top of the food chain, that's how we managed to accomplish so many incredible things that ants and honey bees will never even begin to grasp.

Communism will never work. It destroys the self. Without the self there is nothing.

[jezer]

I've kind of made my point... as non-political and idealistic as it is. It's ok with me if people don't agree.

Poggle your post suggests I don't differentiate between "self" and "selfishness" - but I do and there is a difference. Selfishness is self out of control, and out of focus. Self is ok. There is primal functions in the body that protect self... closing your eyes for instance when a foreign object nears them... the fact the body does that is NOT selfishness. Selfishness is a moral thing. It's a conscious decision to put your self first over the well being of others without concern for how they are effected.

There are higher things in life than "stuff" and "me"... Having stuff and doing things for myself aren't necessarily bad... but they are when they get out of hand when they become my primary focus, and negatively effect others. And for the record... I feel like a drone working for my capitalist employer... which is a feeling you've placed under communism? What's the difference?

The core of my argument is about honouring and preferring one another, it's about respect. It's about having a right attitude. I'm no communist nor have I lived under it, but I see the wisdom in a few of it's ideals.

[*juggleblood*]

Lowliness is young ambition's ladder,
Whereto the climber-upward turns his face;
And when he once obtains the upmost round,
He then unto the ladder turns his back,
Looks in the clouds, scorning the base degrees
By which he did ascend.

[*juggleblood*]

Lowliness is young ambition's ladder,
Whereto the climber-upward turns his face;
And when he once obtains the upmost round,
He then unto the ladder turns his back,
Looks in the clouds, scorning the base degrees
By which he did ascend.

Virtue is choked with foul ambition
And charity chased hence by rancor's hand;
Foul subornation is predominant
And equity exiled your highness' land.

[Medios]

How can you argue that anyone other than the person should decide these things. You talk about greed and selfishness and then in the same sentence assume that government knows better. When has the government ever known better? How often have politicians lied to us? Seriously how can you sit here and say that they should be running our lives.

In a free country if you don't like your job get a new one. If you don't like your hair get it cut. The downfall of our country will be the redistribution of wealth to the non-producers. You cannot punish the producers while encouraging the non-producers. You end up with Rome and 50% of the population depending on the other half.

The main reason that America is great(in my eyes) is that we reward hard work. We don't tell you how many hours you can work or what your maximum pay will be. If you want to make a million dollars that is your business , we won't stop you.

Explain to me why someone would go to school for 10 years and accrue a quarter million in debt to be a doctor, lawyer, rocket scientist if they will "earn" as much as the guy hauling the trash. It takes away from achievement when you claim everyone has the same earning potential. You don't see any correlation with welfare and the ongoing group of people who refuse to work? Why would someone work at McDonalds and be broke all the time when they can sit at home and draw part of my check. Then when they are at home they can sell drugs or do some other illegal untaxed activity to take even more from my community. If these people were not hand fed they would be forced to produce. Produce or starve. Sure this is harsh but at what point to we realize that we cannot reinforce sloth or greed for that matter.

You talk this stuff about greed and my desires for freedom being selfish. You act like I am the destroyer of worlds.

I want everyone in the world to afford the freedom I have and more. Without freedom how can anyone be happy. They would not be able to fulfill what they see as happiness(touched on in another post). [b:leofj9ls] Unless you think the government should tell us what makes us happy then pay for those items I don't see how you can argue this.[/b:leofj9ls]

Oh wait Obama is doing this.

[reboog]

I, for one, welcome my dollars being sent to irresponsible bank executives and people who can't afford their homes.