Game, set, match.

[jezer]

Yeah my comment was idealistic... but just because idealism is unobtainable is no excuse to settle for the "lowest common denominator" crap.

And exercising rights over people works at all levels... In America people might be able to do it over each other by law in situations... in China the government does it over it's people... and in that way they have things in common... greed and selfishness seeking to dominate others through control. Its the same monster with a different head.

The monster isn't "rights" as such, but that can be a symptom... the real monster is selfishness, control and greed. More rights won't stop it, because man's greed and selfishness will always abuse it. Whether it be governments, people or organization at any level.

The only thing that properly counters greed, selfishness and control is actually morality... Rights is about Power, Morality is about love for one another... And any man with a brain can surely figure out that love is often about giving up your rights your the betterment of others.

[Tap]

I'm sure the people of North Korea would disagree. I don't think they had a choice of giving up their rights for the betterment of their fellow man. It was "coaxed" out of them . Better to die standing than living on your knees.

[jezer]

Point of View... Tap...

In there case it's the government that's not giving up there rights to control and manipulate things. Sure it's not working, the general population made the sacrifice of there rights, however, the power that comes from laying down there rights has been collected and abused by a corrupt few in government.

Sure the people are worse off, [b:2fxfx5mu]but it's because an elite few running the country did not make the same sacrifice.[/b:2fxfx5mu] So once again it's greed and selfishness at the base of the problem.

In communism greed and power works out in totalitarianism, in capitalism it works out through rights and legislation. Both systems become corrupted by greed and selfishness, but the out workings are different.

Power and Love (concern for your others) are opposites... there is a saying, he who loves the least, has the most power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Communism is idealistic, and so anyone who is selfish and greedy can abuse the morality given to him by those not exercising there power. It's why communism can so easily be corrupted, yet idealistically is morally perfect.

It's a case of sliding measures. Communism/Capitalism they fall down because of people's greed and selfishness. There needs to be a balance struck that can only be achieved by EVERYONE saying, I will put the interests of my fellow man first. (Moralism) If everyone had that "attitude" ... end of problems. Idealistic... never going to happen... but hey just illustrating the point the real failings of humanity is how he treats others... and he is far too concerned with himself.

And we see this in America in a different way, by how everyone is concerned with THERE rights, before giving a crap about anyone elses. Iraq, Oil, Human rights... I don't need to go on.

[Tap]

[img:1oloa8mt]http://www.punchlinemagazine.com/uploads/images/comedians/Ron%20White/RonWhite_Mid.jpg[/img:1oloa8mt]

[Medios]

Having "rights" and being greedy and/or mean to other people are totally unrelated. Was Martin Luther King Jr. showing love or anger when he protested for blacks to receive the same "rights" as whites? Your looking at this all backwards. You fail to understand that the common denominator in corrupt governments is currency and the military power the currency gives to said leaders. All forms of government have positive and negative aspects. There can never be a perfect system as long as humans are involved.

That being said. The problem with America is not the idea of a federal republic with a vote for all. The problem is with the big business(oil,bank,pharmaceuticals) corrupting the law with money. It is not capitalism per say, but the loopholes that allow money to control everything. You need to remember that many politicians were first lawyers. They work ways to trick us into rooting for something that they know in the end will hurt us. Meanwhile they make profits.

Now I am not against making profits, but when your profiteering is breaking the backs of everyone else then yes it is wrong. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to work hard and having something nice for yourself. If you give to someone who doesn't work as hard, or can't work as hard that is your business. If you want to work an extra 5 hours a week to support a homeless person then go right ahead. The problem is that the politicians that are in favor of taking your money and giving it to someone else have created tax loopholes and things like trusts to hide their millions. So they don't care about spending your money, but you damn sure know they don't want you touching theirs.

Rights are not the problem. Ignorance is. America has been very short sighted in the last 30 years. We don't teach our kids the values your talking of. It has all become about who can get the most. I personally don't live this way, but I never had it easy. Working for me is just something I have to do to support my family. I am not worried whether or not the Mercedes is going to get repo'd because I wouldn't want one if I could afford it. I bought a 50k house even though the bank said I could borrow up to 200k. My fixed mortgage never fluctuated during the bank crisis. All the good decisions that I make are swept under the table by the government helping the bastard people who live on credit. The government is now bailing these people out. Positive reinforcement for people to be dependent. The governments position is clear. Make us dependent.

BTW I am damn sick of having to relog in after 5 min writing a post.

[*juggleblood*]

There was an interesting book by a reputable historian a while back called the Triumph of Conservatism in which he demonstrated that early in the history of corporate america, it was the companies themselves clamoring to be regulated and sponsoring major legislation. But one can see now where this eventually ends up, when the companies get too accustomed to writing their own rules.

[jezer]

Yeah, what I've said about rights has been quite confusing because rights is amoral... Rights can be good AND bad... so it's confuses what I've said.

What I've been trying to point out is that some rights and freedoms people are asking for, just seem to be a license for being even more self centered and greedy. You begin to sense an attitude of selfishness when people start talking about there rights all the time. Makes me think... hey is this just for you mate, or are you thinking of everyone else. There's a huge difference between the man who fights for his own rights and the man that fights for the rights of others, and by the means he employees to get those rights.

I wouldn't say it's just money that corrupts politicians, I'd call it greed. Some people want power over others just as much as money. You could argue that money IS power over others... but still even say at your work... there are always those people that like to have power over other people. Insecure and controlling types. I think at the root of power is often greed... and it manifests in multiple forms.

I like to think true power is actually the opposite of how we see it in the world... it's in words such as grace, humbleness, meekness, tolerance... stuff like that... You can't fake it, and it's a far harder journey to achieve.

[*juggleblood*]

I don't think human beings are any more or less greedy than they were 10k years ago.

The right likes to say that this mess was caused by greed, when in reality it was poor leadership and short-sighted thinking.

[jezer]

[quote="juggleblood":21lfm2fy]I don't think human beings are any more or less greedy than they were 10k years ago.[/quote:21lfm2fy]

There is a saying that I think is true... Times Change, People Don't.

[Medios]

[quote="jezer":idt6fybf][quote="juggleblood":idt6fybf]I don't think human beings are any more or less greedy than they were 10k years ago.[/quote:idt6fybf]

There is a saying that I think is true... Times Change, People Don't.[/quote:idt6fybf]

I think this a bit short sighted. I see progress in every generation. Whether the progress is against racism, sexism, bigotry or greed. Sure we go through bad phases and yes it is a direct result of weak leadership. However overall people have evolved quite a bit in the last 10k years. The main problem is that the government teaches us to be dependent, which is exclusive of a free society.

[Gimlet]

I'm no US-citizen, nor am i pro or anti USA.

however, I think most of the problems if american society is the misconstrued idea of "rights". Blame the smarty pants who decided to name that silly document the "bill of rights". ok before you start slagging me off, I'm not bashing anyone.

People need to differentiate between "rights" and "privileges". I think the only rights human beings have is the right to equality, and the right to survive. Owning a handgun isn't a right, it's a privilege. Being able to speak freely without fear of persecuation is a right. Being able to live without fear of oppression is a right. Beating the crap out of anyone who calls your mom isn't a right.

People may argue that most crimes are committed with illegal firearms anyway. I won'ta rgue with the fact. Why stop at firearms then? hell give us all a nuclear warhead so we can nuke the adjacent neighborhood full of junkies.

I admire the panache with which most of you argue about domestic politics. I only wish half the people in my country had that much passion about the government. I guess that's the difference between our cultures. We sacrifice our own liberties/privileges for a comfortable life, as opposed to sacrificing rights of others so that you can boast to be a proud american.

[Medios]

[quote="Gimlet":er5l0mke]I'm no US-citizen, nor am i pro or anti USA.

however, I think most of the problems if american society is the misconstrued idea of "rights". Blame the smarty pants who decided to name that silly document the "bill of rights". ok before you start slagging me off, I'm not bashing anyone.

People need to differentiate between "rights" and "privileges". I think the only rights human beings have is the right to equality, and the right to survive. Owning a handgun isn't a right, it's a privilege. Being able to speak freely without fear of persecuation is a right. Being able to live without fear of oppression is a right. Beating the crap out of anyone who calls your mom isn't a right.

People may argue that most crimes are committed with illegal firearms anyway. I won'ta rgue with the fact. [b:er5l0mke]Why stop at firearms then? hell give us all a nuclear warhead so we can nuke the adjacent neighborhood full of junkies.[/b:er5l0mke]

I admire the panache with which most of you argue about domestic politics. I only wish half the people in my country had that much passion about the government. I guess that's the difference between our cultures. We sacrifice our own liberties/privileges for a comfortable life, as opposed to sacrificing rights of others so that you can boast to be a proud american.[/quote:er5l0mke]

So should the government make guns illegal? How about knives? How about self defense? Should Kung Fu be illegal? Someone could use it to hurt someone else...

[Gimlet]

honestly at this point, whether or not society has guns makes no difference
the culture of solving problems via violence and the "bigger man wins" mentality has negated any form of social etiquette or social being.

I don't even want to argue about it anymore...it's ironic that the US government gets their pubes in a bunch when other countries arm themselves....

until people can see that arming civilians is hardly a solution to unlawfulness, then society can go to hell

ignore me, having a bad day

[Weasel]

[quote="Gimlet":26z8rg9k]ignore me, having a bad day[/quote:26z8rg9k]
Ok, if you insist.

[Rynquald]

Privileges? A privilege is something given to you by someone who has control over your life, and by extension, your freedom. A child is given privileges by their parents. An adult human doesn't need to be given the "privilege" of freedom.

It's impossible to regulate the ability to commit a crime. Without actual mind control, no one can ever stop someone who is determined to do so. Say one person (secretly) intends to murder another, it simply isn't possible to stop them attempting it, no matter what objects you deny them possession of.

The ongoing problem of crime is merely a smokescreen to use as an excuse for ever tightening controls on our day to day lives.