Who cares?

[Avatar]

I have to agree that I don't like this change. It seems like we are addressing a symptom, and not the underlying problem. You say there should be trade-offs for wearing heavier armor, but you're not introducing any compromises. The current change only forces a new limitation based on class choices that some of us made 5 or more years ago. Introducing caps (to anything) is a poor way to fix the system. It only limits what we can do without allowing choices.

I would rather be allowed to pick and choose what equipment I wear to meet my objectives. If my objective is to hit a certain AC, there should be disadvantages of course but it should be possible. In my opinion, the broken thing about high AC is that you can get very high AC along with +damage, +spelldam, +mana, +regen, etc. Eq with the high AC values should have no other benefits or also come with disadvantages.

If a tank must decide whether to run -11 with 300 extra HPs or with -12, that's an interesting decision. Forcing him to run at -11 takes away his chance to decide for himself. Similarly, a mage should be able to decide whether to run at -9 at full spelldam or at -11 with no spelldam at all. This method uses EQ to allow players some flexibility and choice when they play, rather than forcing them into a role defined by the someone else.

I have said before that designing eq that allows characters to run at their "max" of anything while still attaining the max AC was a silly design decision. Thieves should have to choose whether to run with a wuss stab and good AC, or great stab and lower AC. It would be better to make this a function of equipment worn rather than forcing it based on classo. High end AC should have -hit, -dam, -mr, -mana. Top of the line AC (forges etc) could have high AC without the negatives.

[strider]

Used to think that this was the whole reasoning behind having restictions on eq based by class. as it is now we might as well just have restictions based on lvl since we have a hard cap to eliminate the classes. instead of having restricts on eq that actually make sense they just hard code a cap. instead of having to hear about casters saving up drachma for a relic just make the relic useable by warriors only! put warrior restricts on the max ac items, both ingame and elite/quest. that will have the desired affect but still leave a bit of wiggle room for characters who are creative. last i checked this was still a multi-class mud. we are heading down the path to where prime class matters more than the other 3.

as far as the argument that there were no penalties for mages wearing all that heavy armor. the penalties came in mana/hp/mana regen being lost by having to wear that eq. there was always that give and take, weighing what would be more helpful to my chars, now, no choice.

i also see this as a bit of an over-reaction, within one or two items, tanks will hit -13, adjust one or two retricts and best non-wa will be able to get is -11. right now -10 is basically like light armor, everyone has it or can easily get it, this puts -11 in the medium armor range. heavy armor -12 and better. i don't like seeing casters tryin to run around tanking, but if that's what they try to do, more power to em. tanks will always be better at it, even b4 these changes, it wasn't even close. well, enough about ac changes. to the real matter at hand!

the change to stab was probly long overdue. i have no real problem with it at all except there is next to zero useful +hit eq ingame. the only real useable item is the red eye clasp. thieves already sacrifice their ac to wear damage eq (which if this had been done to other classes we wouldn't have the problem w/ ac, at least 4 slots for mages to have max ac and max spelldam!) and now we gotta wear a ring w/ no ac to add 2 hit? there's actually some sleeves w/ ac hit and dmg!! ohh wait, they take the slot of our prime class quest item and are restricted to warrior, go figure. after that it only gets uglier, feel free to take a look at the eq list, it's pretty sad. you have to go back about 5 yrs to see the last piece of +hit eq that actually got added to an area (that i can think of, give or take a decade), mask of the great thief from temple ruins, sweet!!

again, i have no problem w/ the thief change, even though it totally rapes vaire and basically removes bard class from his order. but can we at least get some items that are useable that have +hit on em?

and i don't mind the spirit of the ac changes, i just think it was implemented in a fairly bass ackwards way. but that's just me. not like i'm goin anywhere.

peace out

[Avatar]

I guess warrior tanks come down to AC and HPs. Everyone should be able to wear similar armor, but warriors should be able to stand up to the punishment. Maybe more skills that give temp HPs, or an amount of temp HPs depending on the size of the group?

It sounds like the +hit for stabs change also reduced the amount that songs boost the stab rate? I guess if we can have songs that give +10 damage, why not songs that give +10 hit? ...especially if mob AC can go beyond -10 now too. The eq will sort itself out over time, as areas are added a lot of imms do ask for suggestions on new eq. If +hit is useful now, maybe we'll get some items added that reflect the new situation.

[Malison]

[quote:1uus6gu8] Maybe more skills that give temp HPs, or an amount of temp HPs depending on the size of the group?[/quote:1uus6gu8]

or maybe just fix oaths so it's actually useful. My warrior's tried oath of victory extensively and your hp from it go away *before* you get hit, so all it gives you is an inability to leave combat.

The idea of giving Bard primes the nonprime-warrior version of this (-11 max) is good. Warriors should be the best tanks, but not the only tanks. Bard seems designed to give large AC along with its +cha, and letting a 3xcaster/wa quad out-tank bard/monk/thief/__...

[strider]

I'm sure the +hit eq will even out w/ new areas, luckily at our rate of about 2 new areas a year my kids will be set!!

[Vixn]

[color=cyan:2w5y9zck][size=150:2w5y9zck]Congratulations!!![/size:2w5y9zck][/color:2w5y9zck] [color=violet:2w5y9zck][size=150:2w5y9zck]You've done that![/size:2w5y9zck][/color:2w5y9zck]
[size=150:2w5y9zck]The most idiotic change i've ever seen.[/size:2w5y9zck]


Kida, the bard who don't need 'iron skin' anymore

P.S. Give me your phucking logic answer for why do bards used to roll DEX before STR if they won't get -11 from now on?

[Vixn]

You ruined player's plans to build chars with -11ac. OK, we'll live with it.
But I know some people who spent about 1k drachma for elite items with good AC because they were going to get -11 with iron skin etc.

What do you think about my 'constructive critical idea' to make reimbursement for everyone who can't get -11 now??

And my another 'constructive critical idea' is to get advice from your player base BEFORE you change the rules of the world, is it any good?

Edd/Kida

[*Krom*]

I feel pretty strongly about this myself, coming from a D&D type background, I just dont see the logic in even allowing 3x casters with bard (traiditionally a lightly armored rogue but changed a bit for slothmud interpretation) as a quad to even be able to use eq that would allow them to come close to "amor clad" knight. Makes no sense. So yes, we made some errors in eq restrictions perhaps to allow this to come up, and I think this is the time to address it.

We all know fullwell that the game is full of tradeoffs eq wise. Your -11 tri-quad caster can pick up more damage, spelldam, charisma, mana regen, or mana and run -10. You will probably end up being tougher.

For strider's comments about thieves: There are some good +hit equipment out there, if you take the time to re-evaluate what is available. Prison-guard helm is one that comes to mind (-1.2 +2 to hit) but there are several others. In actuality, the thief change helps everyone with ANY +hit with the exception of someone who may have had almost no bonus and just singing brothers in valour. The songs will still help you quite a bit, just not make it so you almost cannot miss with just that song alone. I will, however, add an item or so to the new area that is ready to go in to give some tradeoffs in this area. Also songs for damage were not affected.

Back to armor:
For kida (or anyone else who thinks they are greatly wronged by this) -- my bard would be able to hit -11 with no drachma eq at 3x40+38 with iron skin. I am not buying big drachma expenses and effort to get to -11, but if you want to email me your equipment set and what you bought in the drachma shop to achieve this end, I will look at it and see what I can do to make it right, because I do agree, if you specifically tailored your guy for this end, I would be willing to help you out. krom@slothmud.org

[Clink]

Imagine with me we are at a time in the mud a year ago. Everyone's AC is capped at -11. You could imagine with me a time in the mud about five years ago where AC was capped at -10, but that's not completely my point. Anyway, imagine a year ago we announced a new skill for warrior primes to go beyond -11.

Players in general (warriors and non-warriors) would have some concerns about warriors becoming overpowered versus other classes, but likely people would be in favor of the change since it enables warriors to be more creative with their EQ. Bard's might claim they should have it too, but that's about extent of reasonable arguments that would be set forth.

So, obviously it didn't happen this way. We screwed up and didn't count on other classes being able to get to ridiculous AC levels, so we had to go back and fix it. There are other potential fixes we discussed, but they would have been far too painful for everyone (admin and players).

These include:
- adjusting restrictions on all existing eq so that there are no possible combinations for non-warriors to get to -11. Consequently this would also mean that they probably couldn't even get to -7 reasonably.
- adjusting stats on existing good ac items to start choking out mana/regen (including making them drastically negative) and other things which would effectively cripple warriors and start adding positive ac to good mana/regen items
- cap it behind the scenes; effectively dangling a fictitious carrot for non-warriors and encouraging mistrust between players and administration over how well low AC's really work

We chose to do something for the good of the game and in the easiest way for us and the players.

I and the rest of the admin are sorry people spent time, energy and drachma to get to something we shouldn't have allowed.

[Leaf]

Isn't helm Wa and Ma restricted, unless it was just changed... HEADBUTT!

[13]

Bard primes should get the non-prime warrior one is all I'm saying.

[Leaf]

Sooooo...

War Prime = -12 or lower
War in Class = -11
No War = -10

[Weasel]

I would like to respond to everyone who is complaining (which is, well, pretty much everyone).

I would like to give you all the same response many of you have given me over the last 6 years or so whenever I've moaned about warrior prime issues, and here is that very same response:

[b:2c5u7wui]If you don't like the change, MAKE A WARRIOR PRIME CHAR![/b:2c5u7wui]



no, it isn't nice being told that when you (in your opinion) have legitimate gripes, is it?
Too fapping bad.

btw, this is not a Warrior bonus, this is a restriction to non-warriors, so don't go saying warriors have it sweet now either..

wtf is a ca/ca non-wa classo doing with -11ac anyway, let alone -12ac! That's ridiculous - they were never intended for that, and I think everyone understands that much at least - their strengths lay elsewhere, or at least were supposed to. I have some sympathy for Bards as they are, afaik, intended to be more Warrior-like, but sh*t, there are ca/ca's out there with the same ac as me and higher hp regen and insanely higher mana regen rates.. it's so stupid. I wont even mention the word balance. Warriors suck, but I've invested too much time and effort to change now.

Bah humbug.

[Tap]

Warriors have it sweet now!!

Next topic:
When will psteal be back full-time?

[Alberich]

laugh how long have you been waiting to post that Weasel?