Balancing The Monk Class

[jezer]

More mage spells!

I'm starting to feel a little left out being a monk! We have only had a single skill added to our guild in my time at sloth, a chance to don the spandex and use our muscular bodies to crush our opponents! All I need now is a t-shirt with a WWF slogan that gives +2 to bodyslam! Erm, feel free to give me the book too btw

So I've decided to do a little research in the hope I can persuade the powers that be to add a little to the monk class. Maybe not in the way you expect, so imms, please have an open mind!

I understand the monk class to roughly be centered around these skills...

1) Unarmed Combat
2) Mental/Physical Immunites and Mental Strength
3) Experts In Movement

Unarmed Combat
==============

blindfight - Lvl: 4, Learned 85%
strike - Lvl: 8, Learned 85%
stun - Lvl: 12, Learned 85%
dodge - Lvl: 15, Learned 85%
deathgrip - Lvl: 25, Learned 95%
flurry - Lvl: 30, Learned 85%
counterattack - Lvl: 33, Learned 85%
wraithtouch - Lvl: 33, Learned 85%
bodyslam - Lvl: 35, Unlearned

Immunities/Strength
===================

kensai - Lvl: 26, Learned 95%
focus - Lvl: 23, Learned 85%
purity - Lvl: 18, Mana: 60, Learned 95%
feign death - Lvl: 20, Unlearned

Movement
========

presage - Lvl: 31, Unlearned
windrun - Lvl: 36, Learned 85%
slowfall - Lvl: 1, Learned 95%
waterwalk - Lvl: 11, Learned 95%
stalk - Lvl: 17, Learned 50%

Our combat skills are pretty nicely done, and are pretty balanced in the game I feel. Thx!

Our movement skills are also not to bad... but I think flurry should be max 20mvs... because most of us grip and flurry thats like 40mvs straight out! Try doing that with n00b mvs! Might I also add, I think in the movement area, monks should have higher natural mv regen. I for one treasure all eq that has mv regen, and I try to wear as much as possible. Maybe monks should have higher natural mv regen? I mean they float across the ground right? I consistantly run out of move's on xp runs and its kind of annoying. I'd love to see more monk skills based around improved movement...

Now our immunities and mental stratum I think is a little underdone in sloth. This is where I reckon most of the improvement's could be made without upseting Mud balance and other classes etc. Dam reduction is one of those "unreachable" abilities you get just at avatar, I'd like to see that a little more accessible at earlier levels. I mean why do clerics get shield of faith? That should be the kind of skill a monk gets. Monk's should have more skills around saves... I mean a monk getting paralysed should be nearly impossible... and it still happens to me killing ghouls in cata's when I am fixing align! To be honest I haven't checked if having purity up would stop this (60mana! You ever seen a monk with mana?). Maybe purity should be broken down into cheaper sub spells? There are only about 4 or 5 dam reduct items in game of which most are quest. Only one piece accessable to n00b's in the autoquest. I think there has to be more resistant and save type skills for monks.

Here is an ability sheet I found on the net for monks. I include it as part of this post as I think it balances out the monk skills nicely... not just a nice array of combat skills but a lot of skills with a monk mental type edge.

Open Hand Attack

The monk may attack with nothing but their bare hands, according to the chart above. Open hand attacks carrying the serious limitation that the monk must touch the foe in order to do damage. However, they may forego touching them and deal pure stun if they so desire, by clobbering their foes with nearby items.

Increased Movement

The monk steadily increases their base movement every level. This increased speed affects other things such as acrobatic jumping, combat determinations, etc.

Stun Mastery

All attacks, both Open Hand and weapon, deal extra segments of stun by the chart above. Furthermore, this value is the base Stun Reduction of the monk (superceding the cleric progression). Stun does not do damage, but does count toward subdual and shock death.

Awareness

The monk becomes hyper-sensitive to events occurring around him, giving a bonus of –1/2L to their BSM, truncated up.
Level Keyed Abilities

1st - Prone Fighting

The monk is able to effectively fight from any position, even bound, as long as one limb is free.

2nd - Immune to Falling

The monk can negate the damage associated with falling. They can fall Lx10 feet if they are within L/2 feet of a surface which can be used to slow their descent. If the fall is greater than their limit, but they are near a surface, then subtract their limit from the total fall length.

3rd - Missile Snare

The monk can pluck non-magical missiles from the air, preventing damage from being done. One base attack may be spent each round to affect up to L missiles; each missile requires a successful save vs. SC to neutralise. Any size missile can be snared: an arrow "costs" 1L, a heavy quarrel 2L, a ballista shot 3L+, a boulder 5L+, etc. Dodging is done "at cost"; deflecting is double cost; snaring is triple.

4th - Immune to Asphyxiation

The monk can hold his breath for Lx2 rounds without difficulty or impairment. This gives him immunity to gas, as long as he is aware of and prepared for the attack. Note that the monk must ‘recharge’ this ability an equal number of minutes as used.

5th - Disarm

The monk can disarm an armed opponent when fighting open handed.

6th - Immune to Disease

The monk becomes totally immune to all normal diseases. Magical diseases incur a save vs. SC.

7th - Blind Fighting

The penalties involved with any impaired sense are reduced by up to 8. If the primary sense (sight) is lost, then each secondary sense impaired reduces this bonus by 2. Thus, a monk fighting in the dark under a silence could only reduce penalties by up to 6.

8th - Immune to Persuasion

The monk is less susceptible to natural and magical charms, with a (17 - L) x 10% chance of being affected by them. This includes spells like beguiling, charms, hypnosis, and suggestions. Also included are nereid’s sight-love, etc.

9th - Heal Self

Once per day the monk is able to heal damage on his own body, akin to the paladin’s lay on hand’s ability. This will account for (1d4 + L - hp of curing.

10th - Immune to Paralysis

The monk becomes immune to all forms of paralysis, whether from natural or magical causes. Note that this does not include Haste and Slow, nor does it confer a free action-like ability.

11th - Feign Death

Once per day the monk is able to enter a comatose state resembling death. The charade can be maintained for a maximum of (L - 10) x 2 turns in one try. The monk remains fully aware during this time, and may choose to end it at any time.

12th - Immune To Toxins

The monk becomes totally immune to any natural toxin, such as poisons, drugs, hallucinogens, etc. Moreover, the monk gains a saving throw vs. SC for magical toxins (such as Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, Poison, etc.) in addition to any other saves he might get against the magic.

13th - Reduced Damage

The monk takes half damage from any spell that causes damage, even if they fail their save. Furthermore, the monk takes no damage from a spell for which they make their save.

14th - Immune To Compulsion

The monk becomes impervious to exterior compulsions, whether magical or otherwise, phrased in a verbal form. This includes but is not limited to Command, Geas, and Quest.

15th - Mind Over Body

The monk is able to go (L-12) days without food, water, and/or sleep without difficulty or impairment. Note that the monk must ‘recharge’ this ability an equal number of days used, with double food, water, and/or sleep.

16th - Immune To Detection

The monk’s passage becomes undetectable by conventional means (i.e. anything involving the five senses), as if under a Pass Without Trace. This is applicable wherever he travels (ground, mud, walls, snow, etc.) Note that this ability is well complemented by the next two.

17th - Body Equilibrium

The monk can effectively ‘tune’ his body to various surfaces. This allows him to move on such surfaces as mud, water, ice, etc. Thus, a monk with this ability could not only walk on water but also climb an ice-wall with no penalties.

18th - Immune To Divination

The monk is able to partially cloak himself from indirect observations not relying on the five senses, the searcher only having a (24-L) x 15% chance of success. This includes: ESP, Know Alignment, etc. but Clairaudience, Wizard Eye, etc. would still work.

19th - Gentle Tap = Charm Touch

This is the first of the dreaded Quivering Palm abilities. It can be used to charm the creature touched almost totally, causing them to do even inadvisable things.

20th - Immune To Possession

The monk becomes immune to exterior control, whether by magic or otherwise. This includes but is not limited to Domination, Magic Jar, voodoo, etc.

21st - Pressure Pinch = Paralysis Touch

This is the second of the dreaded Quivering Palm abilities. It can paralyze the creature totally, with no adverse effects accruing during the time of paralysis.

22nd - Immune to Life Draining

The monk becomes less susceptible to level draining and un-natural aging. The monk gains a saving throw vs. SC against any spell or attack which would incur either of the above two effects (in addition to any other saves he might receive).

23rd - Compulsive Caress = Quest Touch

This is the third of the dreaded Quivering Palm abilities. It has the effect of a Quest spell, with 1/20th of the victims’ hit points being temporarily lost every day that the Quest is ignored.

24th - Immune To Instant Death

The monk becomes less susceptible to life threatening effects. Any non-mundane effect which would kill the monk instantly is allowed a save vs. SC, in addition to any other applicable saves. This includes: banshee’s wail, touching the wand of Orcus, Death Spell, etc. but not 100hp from a spell or attack, being turned into a rock and dropped, etc.

25th - Death Stroke = Killing Touch

This is the fourth of the dreaded Quivering Palm abilities. It kills the creature outright at any time before the time limit expires. (Note that this can be used effectively as a quest compulsion...)

[*Splork*]

Very good post... But much of what you are proposing is already ingame for monks.

Examples;
Feign Death - feign death
Immune to Falling - slowfall
Immune to disease -Purity & Cleanse
Blind Fighting - Blind fighting
Heal Self - contemplation
Immune to toxins - Purity & Cleanse
Reduce Damage - Sanctity & natural reduce dam
Immune to detection - Stalk

The reason we have been reluctant to adding much more to monks is simply because most of us already love their skillset. This does not mean that we can't or won't be adding more to this class. It simply means we have to be very picky in what we do add. Monk is a phenomenal class, I honestly think its the most well rounded and balanced classes of all the new ones we added. Its a fun prime and just as useful being quad.
The powers gained from choosing monk, when combined with other classes, is unbelievable.

Enjoy,
Splork

But I like a few of the suggestions...

[12345]

[quote="jezer":1tb8moyl]Our combat skills are pretty nicely done, and are pretty balanced in the game I feel. Thx!

Our movement skills are also not to bad... but I think flurry should be max 20mvs... because most of us grip and flurry thats like 40mvs straight out! Try doing that with n00b mvs! Might I also add, I think in the movement area, monks should have higher natural mv regen. I for one treasure all eq that has mv regen, and I try to wear as much as possible. Maybe monks should have higher natural mv regen? I mean they float across the ground right? I consistantly run out of move's on xp runs and its kind of annoying. I'd love to see more monk skills based around improved movement... [/quote:1tb8moyl]

Some things you might like to consider which basically make all of the above understatements:

1) Strike is the best non-mana attack in the game. Its a lot like circle, but it doesn't cost moves and doesn't require you to downgrade to a smaller weapon to be able to use it. You can strike endlessly.

2) On movement. Try being a thief. Stab sucks down moves pretty quick and circle costs moves to use. If you're grouping, you're almost always out of moves if you're circling when you run out of mana. Striking is free.

3) Stabbing/Gripping/Deathblow/Deathtouch are the only attacks really better than strike, but they only work once. Monks have 2 of them. Gripping, while weaker than stab, has the advantage of not having to worry about the mob or room you're standing in being NOSTAB. You don't have to wield a weaker weapon to use it like stab, and you also don't have to worry about wielding the right weapon like you do with stabbing and deathblow.

4) Flurry and counter are both easy extra attacks. Not to mention counter also counts as a parried attack. Not as effective as parry, but it's always nice to pick up an ability with is essentially a slightly weaker version of another class's prime ability.

5) +handdam eq is pretty easy to get compared to +dam. I dare you to find a +2 dam or +3 dam item anywhere in the game. Monks have a few that are +5. Unlike thieves who have +stabdam and +circledam, +handdam works on both grips, strike and the added bonus of normal attacks. On top of that, it's multiplied for grips and strikes, unlike both +stabdam and +circledam.

6) Presage allows a completely different dimension in movement allowing you to get the jump on mobs that are normally agressive or worse... hate you. If a thief misses a stab, he's stuck unless the mob can't see invis or infra. Monks just presage and try again... very nice.

Monk is easily one of the top 3 classes in the game. Easily. It currently needs no help whatsoever.

[jezer]

I agree with 12345 on nearly everything he has said...

But I'm not asking to make monks more powerful offensively! I want more skills in which to play the class a little differently...

Monks are the best chopper's in the game in my opinion. But I'd still like to see some more skills of the mental stratum and possible some skills that save against damage. I think it is possible to add to a class without making it more powerful...

I think this is best explained by the dodge command... Dodge is a useful command and can be used a bit like parry for two rounds... however it takes a combat round to cast... it can fail... and it has no offensive ability.

I personally don't use it, because if I use it instead of strike it takes me more rounds to kill the mob! However say I am a tank in a small group and I have limited healo... I can have counterattack up and dodge;strike. This is not making me more offensive, but it is making me more useful in staying alive. Yes, when using dodge I regularly see myself sidestep blows.

See, I think the monks class in its old form is all about "resistance" but on sloth, its a little more biased to "offensive" - and that's not bad! But maybe we can play a more defensive set of skill's at the expense of our combat... for example a skill that increase dam resistance for a while, but can't work if counterattack is up. There are hundreds of idea's where you could limit our combat effectiveness in some way to improve of defensive ability. All it does is give us new way to play our class, without making us more powerful.

[jezer]

Another idea on this saves/resistance thing I'm harping on about...

There is this mob at the coliseum called mindfroy the illusionist. He has this proc which makes me see this scarey image and I get paralysed totally for 5 rounds or so... (Before I come to my wits an bash his head in... Muhahahaha!) Traditional monk classo's help save against this.

To quote this DnD site... http://www.triskpoli.com/dnd-articles/c ... _class.php

"This natural mental and physical resilience helps her resist most effects that attack her body or her mind."

It lists the pro's of a monk being...

Unarmed Strike
Fairly Good Attack Bonus
Bonus Feats
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Saves
Defensive Abilities
Fast Movement
Good Skill Selection
Ki Strike Ability
Improved Grapple as a Bonus Feat Choice

The con's of being a monk...

Mediocre Armor Class
Mediocre Hit Points
Poor Weapon Selection
Fewer Magic Item and "Buff Up" Spell Choices

In the same way wailing monsters that effect your mind, monk's could also have resistance too. This IS useful... don't you hate it when wailing mobs make you flee and you have to reorder mobs and twiddle your thumbs for those two rounds again with order lag?

Monks at sloth are great! I'm not knocking them! I love how sloth classo's are unique! I mean bard/necro/monk are really unique great classo's. And those funny mage types...

cast 'hurt mob insanely hard with fire attack' <target>
cast 'hurt mob lightly with water attack' <target>
cast 'hurt mob moderately with lightning' <target>

OUT OF MANA...

Lie Still, You Are Dead!

Guess they aren't too bad either! Even though they always get new spells *sniff*

cast 'silence' mage

[Grue]

Hey Jezer, don't take this as a flame because it's not intended that way, just a realistic comment. Slothmud doesn't follow pure D&D standards, so expecting any class to follow exactly what D&D does is unrealistic. The bottom line is that a lot of time is spent balancing classes, and monk has become what it is after a LOT of gameplay and adjusting by the immortals.

I think some of your ideas are quite cool, but honestly we all have things we'd like to see added to the classo we have chosen. If all these things were added to monk not only would it radically change the nature of the classo, but it would tip the power of the class way over the top. As it is most folks will tell you it is one of the most powerful primes.

What that in turn does is one of two things :
a) Everyone else bitches while simultaneously going out and making monk primes. Once everyone has gotten to level 40 it becomes apparent that the class is way overpowered, and either the new skills are powered down, or the old one are neutered, and everyone who has a monk prime is unhappy, particularly the older chars who liked the way it was before the new skills were added.
b) Every other class is ramped up with 12 new skills, everything becomes easier to kill, xp per hour goes up. All the mobs are made harder or xp is reduced, mobs that were group are now solo, changing game play, and everyone complains when skills are neuetered.

Bottom line is, this isn't going to happen the way you want. I know it would be nice to play monk the way you want, but why should everyone else not get the skills they want added then. If anything skills and spells are added slowly, and even then they run the risk of shifting balance. Really, nice ideas. I think you need to understand that what you are asking for is a bit unrealistic, that's all.

[12345]

Honestly, monk has one of the least noticable shifts in power between prime and anywhere else. Wraithtouch and Kensai are nice and all, but even with monk second, the class is one of the nicest in the game.

Prime:
40 mana, Wraithtouch, Kensai, some prime gear

Second:
20 mana, Slightly lower caps, slightly less handdam

Third:
0 mana, slightly lower caps, same handdam as second

Fourth:
0 mana, slightly lower caps, same handdam as second

Has anyone in the game found a cap for handdam? Dam_reduction might be useful if you buy every drachma piece in the shops, but unless you have a piece with 2%, it's basically useless.

If you take monk second to Warrior. You will lose some damage on grips and strikes but deal more with regular attacks... plus you get more regular attacks in addition to flurry and counter. You also don't have to worry about being in reroll hell for forever because you have Str 1st instead of 3rd or 4th! So the damage you gain through your natural % Strength makes up for the handdam you lose for not being prime!

Taking monk second to Thief, you'll be able to add more damage to stab with focus and can still presage if you miss. If you find a NOSTAB mob, flee, presage and grip. Splork the mud! No getting chased out of an area just because you missed a stab! Damage reduction also has much more noticable effects on mobs that do 500 damage a round. 50 hps can be the difference between reciting a recall and searching ICQ.

Taking monk second to Mage. You can grip and counter with just one class instead of both warrior and thief! No worrying about nostab mobs. Can still strike when you run out of mana and don't have to worry about getting a pesky weapon. After all, the higher damage weapons are far too troublesome when you can do basically the same damage naturally.

....


And as if that all wasn't enough, the class literally walks on water.

You can't beat that with a stick.

[dezakin]

Jezer you can take this as a flame if you want.

It sounds like you're just griping because your classo is uncomplimentary. You're asking for a bunch of stuff that you get from other classes anyways, as zukt used to whine continuously about not getting gate.

Monks are all kinds of cool allready and if you want compliments you have 3 other classes to choose from. Getting th,wa, and is going to be a lot less complimentary with monk than many other classes.

Non-prime thief has a much harder time of it, especially with low str. Druids have some great utilities but shapeshift can be quite painful and when regen is the big druid thing, tert or quad druids have big pain.

[jezer]

Jezer was my first char which I made a HEAP of mistakes on.

I now play Ecko o/c/n/b, he is already insanely more powerful than jezer. (And he wear's most of Jezer's eq) He is not far off Jezer's levels either.

Thanks all for your comments... and I so know what you mean about tipping the balance, and no one wants that to happen to monk like the whole necro thing again. But I still believe like any class, things can be added that are useful without making it offensively stronger.

Asking and giving idea's for monk additions, was always going to be a bit like asking for more fire power in an apache hellicopter... I mean what more can you ask for!

[Roadrunr]

For some reason, I just suck at playing casters but...

...I really like my monk/warrior. He doesnt have a ton of mana but I only seem to cast sanc, restore and refresh anyway. I dont think I've cast a single mage spell in an offensive manner. And I've been so busy playing Xander that I've barely played roadrunr or ana for in long while...

I also have a mo/ne/cl/ma and with 16 nat str (runs at 18/10), he does what seems like way less damage than Xander did at his levels.

Anyway, one of the downsides I see to monk is that all the other NC classes get better AC gear...then again, it IS all about the damage.

imho, monk is fine. besides, I've already got too many books to pop for the 3 chars I surely intend to keep let alone the other 4 that I'm debating about...pretty sad when you give away a char with 17 18 18 16 15 nats just because you dont have time...

[so]

Game is focused on group interaction of players, and the monk is concentrated on own ideas, and these ideas sometimes false, look as he does deathgrip through time, and his slow falling, feign death and wraithtouch simply the nonsense.
In group he is useless as successfully enough him it is possible to replace necro from him horde spiteful creatures.. And he possesses also a sufficient stock мana.
All good enough things can be extracted only group...
Solo he can beat only small creatures....hehe..
At all I do not understand for what he it is necessary... The Monk is the fighter, the magician, or the doctor? And there can be it androgyne..
The conclusion: monk is bosh dog.

[Vixn]

nod, I agree. some of new ideas "disrupt the harmony of sloth". so monks and necroses usually run solo although as I know 'sloth' was group oriented mud for a long long time. I don't think any tuning will help to balance new classoes so I believe we should return to 4 real classes: Mages, Clerics, Warriors and Thieves.

thanks

[jezer]

There seems to be a bit of older player resentment of new classes and idea's going around? Has sloth changed for the worst since it went 8 classo's? Some people seem riveted to old classo, but complain about not having the features of the new classes? Some people just haunt the board to trample suggestions.

My old physic's teacher used to say... be remembered as a builder not a breaker... (That is until we changed it too, be remembered as a builder not a beaker)

[12345]

It's an issue of perspective Jezer. The new classes are quite a shift in power from the original 4. Strangely, this mostly happens when combined with the original 4 classes. The only notable exception is ne/dr which is a topic all it's own.

Warrior and Mage have seen a power shift recently, which helps to put them closer to parr with the new classes, and thief has always been a devestating prime class. Even clerics have gotten a boost with supplicants. I've seen Krok take on mobs that I would normally consider outright suicide using supplicants.

So the simple answer is that the new classes represent a shift in the game, and there's been quite a bit of power balancing happening recently. Now that things are finally starting to balance out a little, no one is really in a hurry to recreate a problem which caused quite a lot of resentment to start with. Especially when Monk still clearly sits at the high end of the power scale.

Saying that monks and necros aren't group characters is a fairly unique opinion though. I regularly group with both, and frequently actively recruit them. Weaken has become critical to running some areas and monks do a massive amount of damage without draining the available mana pool, especially if there's a bard in group. Hitters and debuffers are always needed in groups.

Monks can solo quite well, but even running a 2man grip/blast group opens up some fantastic xp opportunities. Not to mention that it's common to run faster than the monk can regen movement to grip with. The safety factor is very handy as well. Running with Nab and Rajil were some of the most fun groups I've been in. I've even pretended to be a monk on many occasions and run with a great deal of success.

I seem to have jumped off topic... time to work.