Bard Buff Ideas

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Bard Buff Ideas

Postby Aeribelle » Fri May 22, 2020 2:35 am

Hey all,

Recently returned to sloth, and loving it! Always loved bard, despite some obvious weakness' of the class. After some playing and getting used to some things, had some suggestions and ideas that might improve a bards performance.

1) First one is more a quality of life change. I've noticed groups tend to get bigger now then they used to, meaning the bard can no longer cover the entirety of a group. Bards get 11 targets at 40, and up to 3 from instrument... i suggest taking a few of the auto-targets away from bards, and give them some scaling on Charisma for aditional targets.

Put them to 9 targets at 40, and say... 1 extra per 4 charisma. at 8 charisma would be the same, and around 8 they'd have 5 extra targets, putting a benifit on charisma for groups, and allowing bards to cover their party more easily. Charisma in a group doesn't have much use atm, save from the rare need to reign, so would make it more worthwhile a stat to keep in a group.

2) Dance of the Seven Luck Gods - A bards true 'prime skill'. It has uses, but its very hard to use, especially in a group. Had an interesting idea to incorporate it into a group mechanic, gems. Now, its usual proc only affects mobs when they spawn... but gems don't spawn until it dies. Why not allow a bard to sing Luck Gods to increase the chance of gem pops as it does on eq pops? It would add overall value to a group, as well as give a second bard something to do when in a group (not that there are any bards atm). I don't think it would be able to be heavily utilized solo since the song has a heavy mana cost and shuts down your other songs. I would also suggest that Dance be moved to 'sing only', to further hinder its abuse solo, so spell casting with it will interrupt it automatically.

3) Avatar Skill: Harmony - A way to really make bards shine in groups... Allow them to utilize multiple songs at once. They have the ability to sing songs, as all people can. And Bard Primes also get the ability to play songs, allowing them to cast while playing. But wht not allow an avatar bard the ability to do both? Let them play one song, and sing another (after all, they can cast spells while playing, why not sing?). Of course the singing song would be at jeopardy if they cast something else, but thats just the way of things. (Also, if this and the dance change are considered, REALLY suggest making dance sing only so its the one most at jeopardy... trying to limit the solo abuse on popping gems. the suggestion is meant to be a group benifit!)

Just a few suggestions to put a little more strength into bards in the group scene, because that is where they are supposed to shine! Let me know what you think.
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Re: Bard Buff Ideas

Postby Gorka » Fri May 22, 2020 4:40 am

I don't think there are any coders with enough time to do anything at the moment. That's the reality. #makecodersgreatagain

Aeribelle wrote:Bard can no longer cover the entirety of a group.

There also appears to be a bug, as it says I can cover 14 people with my song, but can only ever do 13.

Aeribelle wrote:Had an interesting idea to incorporate it into a group mechanic, gems.

Personally I don't agree with a bard song for increased gem rates. Gems are actually plentiful. You probably weren't playing in the older times when gem rates were way worse than they are now. I think the current problem is due to large and slow groups. Mobs only pop one gem - which is effectively split between 15+ people. Groups aren't the most effective way to get gems. It's better to solo lvl 41 mobs and trade with Reece. Also buying gems on auction I note is currently 3x cheaper than in days gone past. If people realised that grouping isn't the best way to get gems, there really isn't a problem here.

Aeribelle wrote:3) Avatar Skill: Harmony

I would like to see a bard song that joins gods and valor. I sing both songs in a group, so it's already possible to have both affects from a single bard - but it's annoying because the songs cut each other out and spells make interruptions. Resinging is spell lag. This situation will be better with the shofar at 9x40. I don't think all songs make harmonies... cry/reign... it would be better to make individual songs (gods of valor) which joined the effects. Although perhaps harmony could improve effects or mana efficiency as a separate skill.

For some reason Sanctuary for the Soul can be sung while fighting, but Sanctuary for the Body can't - totally defeating the purpose really of the avatar version. It's literally a few seconds to change that in the code.

I'd like to see bard songs with the ability to stun, paralyze, or petrify mobs, as these procs are under utilised in sloth and lend themselves the folk lore of wailing etc. The general idea behind sonic damage could be enhanced.

Charming is a valid bard skill, but that system needs work and it overlaps with necro too much. It needs to be more legalised and legitimately defined. Clearly some dodgy immortals modified mob levels to create some super high level charms in the past. Most are now patched.

However I see the Bard instrument slot as the best opportunity for improving the bard class, it just begs to have items with effect procs.

Obviously almost EVERYTHING bard orientated should scale on charisma.
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Re: Bard Buff Ideas

Postby Aeribelle » Fri May 22, 2020 5:07 am

Gorka wrote:Personally I don't agree with a bard song for increased gem rates. Gems are actually plentiful. You probably weren't playing in the older times when gem rates were way worse than they are now. I think the current problem is due to large and slow groups. Mobs only pop one gem - which is effectively split between 15+ people. Groups aren't the most effective way to get gems. It's better to solo lvl 41 mobs and trade with Reece. Also buying gems on auction I note is currently 3x cheaper than in days gone past. If people realised that grouping isn't the best way to get gems, there really isn't a problem here.


I only know i played ages ago when they really WANTED gem popping to be done in groups, not solo. They raised the 'level' of mobs required to 41 specifically for that purpose, and drastically increased the rarity. Granted, power has grown immensely since i played years ago, but figured that was still true, that grouping was preferred.

Gorka wrote:I would like to see a bard song that joins gods and valor. I sing both songs in a group, so it's already possible to have both affects from a single bard - but it's annoying because the songs cut each other out and spells make interruptions. Resinging is spell lag. This situation will be better with the shofar at 9x40. I don't think all songs make harmonies... cry/reign... it would be better to make individual songs (gods of valor) which joined the effects. Although perhaps harmony could improve effects or mana efficiency as a separate skill.


Efficiency is what i was thinking. instead of relying only on your instruments duration, you could keep up two songs and save on mana of having to sing them, cutting down on that. Adding in spells to of course would keep one down more.

Regarding reign/cry, that abuse would be halted early just because there is still the spell-lag of activating a song, so it'd be no different then we already have for instant songs, this is more suggested for keeping up songs in groups more.

Mostly the ability to utilize more songs. Be nice to keep up a gods while having to sing sanct for instance, or things like that.

Gorka wrote:For some reason Sanctuary for the Soul can be sung while fighting, but Sanctuary for the Body can't - totally defeating the purpose really of the avatar version. It's literally a few seconds to change that in the code.


I was sad to hear this. I was looking forward to not needing to spam sanctuary of the soul so much in proc fights :(


Gorka wrote:I'd like to see bard songs with the ability to stun, paralyze, or petrify mobs, as these procs are under utilised in sloth and lend themselves the folk lore of wailing etc. The general idea behind sonic damage could be enhanced.
+
However I see the Bard instrument slot as the best opportunity for improving the bard class, it just begs to have items with effect procs.


Those would be cool. And would be a something that could easily be added to procs of instruments too, give more then one choice then 'generic worst--best' instrument lineup we have.
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Re: Bard Buff Ideas

Postby Aeribelle » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:18 pm

Just had another general idea....

I've always hated bards getting DEX as prime stat. I understand the 'lore' of it, but it really does nothing for them. Bards have an array of Max_Dex gear in drachama too, that does little beyond AC (and its not like they are 'super ac' peices... just top end with low ac, and the max-dex brings it up to par with others).

Currently Max_Dex only provides benefit to a handful of thief skills... why not add in a Song Mastery effect as well, for 'pushing through' lost concentration on songs, like clerics and mages get for INT/WIS? It'd make the stat actually do something for bards, would be easily coded with copying the coding from the other stats. Not a huge buff by any means, and all classes would benifit if they have max-dex, but would be a nice quality of life change for group bards, cutting down on some spell-lag on lost conc in switching songs.
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Re: Bard Buff Ideas

Postby Gorka » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:56 am

Tonedeaf can cap ac at -12 with max weapon damage without buying MAX_DEX from the avatar or rebirth shops. So I agree dex is mostly useless past that point.

Tonedeaf has also capped Charisma at 52, which means songs never?? fail... but the issue isn't that the songs WERE failing it's that the songs ARE a fail. Wall of sleep doesn't appear to work on mobs > Level 40. Cry of the avatar/Flames at midnight is worse than lower level mage spells. Sanctuary for the Body doesn't work while fighting. Hymn of the morning star, Sacred Reprieve, Haunted Dirge have little practical use. Reign of Confusion/Sanctuary for the soul was already effective with far less charisma...

You can make a bard classo work well... but not because it's a bard - but because of the investment in the secondary classes. Tonedeaf is already doing 5 viciously massacres. He'll end up with similar melee damage to Gorka singing gods and with the 6x40 axe. Charms don't make a lot of sense in the new game, unless the spell is expensive >60 mana. Dance of the seven luck gods is mostly useful for only a few quest items these days, as the best eq is mostly drachma now. Bards are good in groups and as a leader, but I wouldn't bother otherwise... I certainly wouldn't expect changes to them. That's not to say I wouldn't welcome them, just being realistic. I wouldn't advise anyone to play one.

There is one little amusing point with bards though... given the extra damage they get from prime gods of war... and the ability to get double stab damage from a mob they first "wall of sleep" which is charisma based... they may in fact be a better stabber than thieves in some cases (solo <= lvl 40 mobs). :lol: If you want a similar game, but different in the fact it actually makes sense... play grim dawn or diablo II.

Bards were built on great ideas, but the implementation is completely terrible... and there has barely been a change in the past 10 years... and to be frank, I doubt there will be in the next 10 years. The elephant in the room that no one is talking about, is there are currently no active coders.
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