Second Wind

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Second Wind

Postby Gorka » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:18 am

So second wind was debated last night in a group... I get annoyed when people discuss this topic, because there is some stuff out there that's simply not true... I want to set the record straight but also propose a resolution.

Firstly I want to point out some things people don't understand...

* You can't second wind more than once in a round.

* Second wind costs 40 moves for non avatars and 20 moves for avatars. When second wind costs 40 moves, you only have refresh which costs 20 ma for 25mvs making it completely uneconomical to use. So second wind effectively adds about 40 mana to spell cost.

* Greater refresh is 50mvs for 20 mana. So second wind adds effectively 8ma to spell cost plus 3 seconds to cast Greater Refresh later. Unless you second wind that... saving 3 seconds, but costing 20mvs.

* High scores in the coliseum below 4x40 are not due to second wind. These records are held by myself or by non warriors. I did not achieve the high scores in these coliseums using second wind as it's too expensive to use when you are not avatar. Sorry, no white warrior privilege here... Suck it in.

* High scores over 4x40 in the coliseum are all due to second wind... this is a contributing factor, but as the player Mage shows by his high scores... YOU probably just suck... the orb in the coliseum refreshes your mana every 120 seconds. Fight rounds are 3 seconds. Generally people are casting firewind at the mobs at a cost of 25ma. That means 40 rounds of 25ma = 1000ma. My point is, unless you have a lot of mana, there is no need to second wind in the coliseum anyway... The only point of second winding in the coliseum is to use what mana you have before the orb refreshes you. But what about second winding strike you say... well strike for starters does a lot less damage... and no monks hold coliseum records. So although second wind does help in the coliseum, it's a hell of a lot less than people think and in most cases players use there max mana before the orb refreshes anyway.

* Warriors second wind everything... it's just so efficient... wrong! Warriors regen mana slower, second winding everything leads to regen, and regens are slow. The most efficient form of fighting for warriors is to kill things continually that cost nothing. Second winding everything is a sure way to regen, and regen is a sure way to less xp. If you are a warrior second winding your xp runs, then regenning 6-7minutes+... you're doing it wrong.

* Everyone should be able to second wind... it's over powered, we need equality, it's classist... well let me just say that a warrior second winding a firewind, is not equal to a mage second winding a frostbolt. So this equality argument is crap, it wouldn't be equal at all.

What the real issue is with second wind... and this had some acceptance among the discussion last night is that second wind should be limited to skills only. In my opinion and the opinion of some others, this is the real solution. Also there is the issue of warriors second winding the order lag of followers (negating class order). That should also probably be removed. If second wind was to be given to everyone, in my opinion it should not work with spells and maybe not with ordering. This is the only true "equal" solution.

I think enabling warriors to second wind spells was an oversight. I don't expect all warriors to agree with my solution here... but the facts remain true that second wind should have never worked with spells or orders, and to argue against that is just warriors protecting self interest.
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
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Re: Second Wind

Postby *teker* » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:31 pm

Currently the game doesn't have lag types, it just has a lag counter. So you cast a spell, order followers, or get bashed, it just increments the counter by how much time to lag you. When you second wind successfully it sets the counter to 0 and the game starts processing your commands again.

What you're asking for is doable, there are over 150 places in the code that will need changed to make it happen.

Are there any other classes that need nerfed while we're looking at things?
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Re: Second Wind

Postby Teron » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:57 am

I agree with Gorka about SW not being the honeypot everyone assumes it to be, though it does have its uses - particularly, when killing hard-hitting mobs solo.

However, if it's used just for skills, it'll be rudimentary - like casting 4 mirrors for 25ma at 1 mirror per cast or using wraithform on huge mobs that pretty much ignore it. What will it be used for other than removing entrench/squirm lag? Striking?

It seems it'll be used mostly for stab/grip lag and striking at excess mvs - would it be satisfactory for warriors?

What if I use a weap dam set in groups and use broadside - except the mob is large and it wont work - how will SW help me here other than force to switch to hand dam?

I wonder if all agreeing warriors had envisioned what it'll lead to and agreed to that.

Though, logically, yes, it should be used for skills - I reluctantly agree with this as well. But without warrior skills to use it with It'll bring its value down to the usefulness of other prime skills. Though I'd rather make magic mirrors appear in 1 cast and cost 50ma total.

Teker, yes.

Bard sidhe charms need to become personal.

They are as OP as an emerald dust in a lizardman shop, to the point, where people make classo decisions for an alt along the lines of, "My alt doesn't need mana, he'll use sidhe charms".

That being said, prime skills is what would make multiple rebirths very interesting, so after a rebirth or two, everyone should have a chance to use second wind - and apply it to their skills, not spells - or choose to make sidhe charms on their own.
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Re: Second Wind

Postby norks » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:03 am

I would be inclined to leave it alone in terms of how and where it works but just make in non-prime
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Re: Second Wind

Postby *Neptune* » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:59 pm

Teron wrote:They are as OP as an emerald dust in a lizardman shop, to the point, where people make classo decisions for an alt along the lines of, "My alt doesn't need mana, he'll use sidhe charms".

That has since been removed for those of you running to check out the Lizardman Provisioner.

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