Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

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Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:30 am

I'm currently buying hp points for about 35,000,000,000 xp each. The "diminishing returns" purchasing formula of rebirth shop works, and there comes a point where buying things becomes soul destroying... it's exactly what the top players need to give themselves even the smallest way to perpetually improve... and without it, I wonder if more players wouldn't quit.

Gorka finished rebirth shop over 1 year ago. Since then I made Tonedeaf, which is also rebirth avatar and purchased all the active damages in the rebirth shop. So therefore I think it's safe to say I am not the only player whose hit the improvement wall.

I am not the only player who wants to keep playing, but feels they have hit the wall. If you feel you are in that position, would you please consider adding your voice to this post.

Now I don't expect the game management to support a full throttle opening of the rebirth shop and an extension of the limits... I'm not against that idea, but I am trying to be reasonable. My suggestion would be to remove the caps on mv, hp and ma regen as a way of opening up more, without being silly about things, as a way of addressing something everybody could use, but doesn't necessarily open up the silliness and imbalances that increasing damage caps creates.

I'm asking the immortals to get their feet wet, not jump in the pool. Could the caps on buying hp, mv and ma regen be removed. I tend to recall that the 10th ma regen in rebirth shop cost well over 100,000,000,000 and I doubt 10 more points would be purchasable in the time frame of a year at these prices, so seems a safe and controlled way to open up the shop to players better. I also wish to point out that available damage has been added to players in stupid amounts, for far less time cost in the past two years, and I honestly think I am making a reasonable request. If we want high level players to keep playing, you have to offer something.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:05 pm

Bump! Any response from the people who run the game?
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:14 pm

We have briefly discussed the possibility of this, yes. I am currently developing a new drachma item that will hopefully address both this concern and the issue of making areas/eq/forges relevant, but it's a big project and will take me time. Between work, family, and ministry I am at my limit, but I will continue trying to make progress on it.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:26 pm

Firstly, I don't see how your artifact would effect the widening of rebirth shop... surely players need to have some form of an outlet to spend xp on improvements if the immortals realistically expect the players to continue killing mobs for xp... (the principal and original objective of the game) Although the immortals seem so absent these days, it feels like expectations of anything or anyone has been lost. :|

Secondly, given that all your proc items have effected the game PROFOUNDLY and in non-traditional ways... have you thought about sounding out your ideas on the forum a bit, so the effects of the new item don't overshadow the game like the other items have in the past?

Teker through his own posts and track record, aligns his changes with "the intentions of the original coders." There is a point where the game changes too much, and it sells out on it's ethos and becomes cheap, for a lot of people that was the start of s4, but s4 is nothing in comparison to the effect your items have had on "player power" in the current version of the game. With each new addition it feels like we get further away from what Sloth represented, and the game isn't becoming "better" players are just becoming more powerful - and that's kind of empty once the sugar rush runs out.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:02 pm

I'm sorry that you don't like how I have rebalanced the classes. Just because something "takes a leap forward" does not mean that it isn't "following the intention of the original coders". When I made something take a leap forward, it was because those classes needed a leap forward to gain parity with the power curves of the stronger classes. Even after all of the "leaps of power for caster items", melee classes are *still* stronger than every other class, which means we didn't overshoot. Do you not see that mages and clerics needed a serious boost to bring them up to snuff? Your thinking is far too simplistic.

One of the fundamental problems with SlothMUD was that while the intent of the original coders may have been sound, their execution did not scale properly. Let me give you a couple examples:

(Example 1) Melee class characters do damage primarily through weapons, so as damage increases (i.e. through avatar shop and rebirth shop), damage increases linearly. As such, the damage output over time for a melee class never goes down throughout the course of an hour-long xp run. Casters, on the other hand, rely on mana, which is a limited resource. Yes, they can burst harder than melee, but they hit a hard wall in which their damage output becomes non-existent. As the game has scaled, as our groups have grown to where we can run xp non-stop, that wall shows up very, very early for a caster. Clearly you can see how a caster, sitting on his ass 5 minutes into an hour-long run, empty, casting a spell once every 4 rounds is beyond lame. While melee continues to pump out hard damage, casters just sit on their asses watching the melee players in all of their glory. What was the problem? It was a problem of scaling. When xp runs were 5-10 minutes in length, melee and casters pumped out comparable damage. As xp runs scaled to an hour or more, the damage curves diverged. I'm surprised after all that I have posted on this issue that you are still not understanding this fundamental problem with the game. Was the original intent of the coders good? Sure. Did they execute it perfectly? Hmmm, not perfectly, but I'm not going to be hard on them. They did an amazing job putting the code base together, they simply didn't think about the inevitable endgame of power creep. So be it. We fixed it. Just because you don't like the leap of power doesn't mean it wasn't necessary/important for caster classes.

(Example 2) Consider backstab and deathtouch/deathgrip. The advantage of backstab over deathtouch/deathgrip is lack of lag and high top-end damage--you can follow it up with retreats, circle stabs, firewinds, whatever you want, whereas a monk is eating the first round of damage no matter what. The disadvantage of backstab is that it's not as dependable, you whiff quite a bit. The thought in this implementation was that the advantages and disadvantages balanced each other out. The higher damage output of backstab and lack of lag offsets the lower dependability. Did it work? For a while, but the problem is that it didn't scale. As damage amounts went up (which will happen as the inevitable power creep comes), the stab/grip mobs that are worth killing for xp didn't scale. As damage amounts scaled, the power curve of deathtouch/deathgrip grew high enough that the lag disadvantage become irrelevant. When deathtouch/deathgrip are able to splork the choice xp mobs, the lag becomes irrelevant, and dependability becomes king. This illustrates itself in a concrete way through xp/hour. So here we are, monks thriving and thieves are disappearing. Per the actual equations, damage scaled appropriately for both backstab and deathtouch/deathgrip, such that thieves are still able to burst more damage (2x stab + firewind/circle stab is considerably higher damage than deathgrip/deathtouch), so the problem was not the addition of damage. The problem was that the underlying foundation didn't scale, because as power grew, the deathtouch/deathgrip disadvantage ceased to be a disadvantage. The balance of advantage/disadvantage is gone. I have some ideas on how to alleviate this problem, but it may never happen, because it would involve a 'leap of power' for thieves, which you'll get on your soapbox about how I'm cheapening the ethos of Sloth.

This new item I'm building is not an artifact. And no, I don't particularly want to discuss it. Until you expand your thinking to take into consideration deeper and more fundamental issues, I'm not going to spend my time explaining every last nuance of why I do what I do.
Last edited by Driven on Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:24 pm

Thanks for taking the time out to share your ministry with us. I'll take your post to heart and get some edumacation. But give me time please, not all of us are so enlightened.

their execution did not scale properly

We fixed it.

Until you expand your thinking

I'm surprised after all that I have posted on this issue that you are still not understanding this fundamental problem

Your thinking is far too simplistic.


I'm reminded about a story about a wolf in sheeps clothing and the saying "you will know them by their fruit."
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:32 pm

There's another one--live by the sword, die by the sword. If you're willing to use words to make accusations, then you better be willing to stand up to the defense. My intent is not to humiliate or demean, so if I came across that way, my apologies. But the fact is, you accuse me (which you almost make a sport of it) constantly, and so yes, I'm going to defend myself.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:28 pm

Man up Driven, There is no malevolent conspiracy on my part to drag you down just for the hell of it.

Effectively you've implemented "guns" in a game about "knife fighting." You've added very little content since you've been back, all of about 10 rooms on Lyme, you've added an exponential amount of power for the smallest player time cost the game has ever seen. Personally, I think it's been selfishly motivated, but that's just my opinion. You've earned the criticism fair and square. It's for good reason I'm wondering about your new idea.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:18 pm

I've given all of my reasons for what I've done. You haven't refuted those reasons, all you do is continue to scream louder. Pretty sure I'm not the one who needs to man up.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:41 pm

Gorka, check your email please.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby jayclimbs » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:23 pm

My two cents:
While Driven's post addresses a root issue - perhaps *the* root issue with Sloth as it stands, but does so without recognizing that real issue. Nor does it address Gorka's original post. It does however, highlight what I believe is in fact the root issue for the game.
Driven is trying to balance - no, rebalance - the game to fit multi-hour group xp running (hence called grouping).

Gorka wants the rebirth shop to offer his high-level character something to play the game *for*. His question stems from an inherent dissatisfaction with the game's ongoing play. At the top, it seems there's nowhere else to go. His direct solution only bandages the broken bone.

What is perhaps missed between these two topics is the underlying problem. Sloth has become a game that doesn't just include grouping - it has become a game that demands it. Grouping is a symptom of the problem, not the patient. The game has become so one-sided toward grouping that nothing else works.
Witness Driven's comments about scaling the game. Balancing the game for grouping is the sole measure. No other style of play is mentioned, not because there are not other potential styles of play, but because all other styles of play are so very crippled that they do not work. Don't believe this? Create a character and get it to 2x40 without grouping. No newcomer to the game would stick around that long; no alt-character would bother.
The real issue is rebalancing the game to include, at a comparable level, other styles of play. The question should not be 'how do we make magic-types comparable to warrior-types in long-lasting combat?', the question should be 'how do we offer multiple paths that are roughly equal in time spent playing, enjoyment-wise?

There are relatively few quick-and-simple solutions to this dilemma, but if Sloth is to survive, something must be done. Probably some things.
Number one, increase the xp gain for quests. A lot. If a quest takes an hour to complete, it should yield as much as a one-hour grouping session (currently a bit less than 1Bxp). That one change would turn a lot of heads, and give players a reason to go through the pains of subduing yet another mob.

That is where the Rebirth Shop question comes into play (told you I'd get back to it!).

What if other elements were introduced through the Rebirth/Avatar shops? What if characters could buy training in say, weaponsmithing, and begin forging their own weapons (not taking it to a mob to do)? Or mages could learn 'deep enchantment' and be able to add things like proc damage to weapons, etc.? Or - well, the possibilities are many. Introduce new skills characters can acquire through the ava/rebirth shops, and develop these to be meaningful parts of the game.
Or what about providing a means for 9x40s to actually *live* in their 'hovels' instead of just storing things in ornamental vaults? That opens gameplay to all sorts of things. Want to overnight in your home? Only if you have a bed. Want a bed - either buy it from an exorbitantly priced store, from a skilled woodworker-player-character, or learn the skill yourself. Implementing this would grab a lot of attention, and make gameplay more fun.
Things like this expand the game without requiring a lot of 'rebalancing'. They give players alternative avenues for being truly in the game, not scripting through the tedium.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:02 am

Pretty fair post I think "Jayclimbs."

In reality Driven and I agree more than we disagree, especially on what the problems are. Our disagreement's really stem for what we think should be done about them, given the resources available. I see Driven's ideas as sugar coating, I'm for deeper structural changes, yet no one is around to make them. So what do you do? Do nothing, or eat a little sugar? That's kind of how I see it, boiled down. I've offered to immortal, I've never been told yes or no, just pretty much ignored. Rebirth Shop changes, is really just more sugar, but I doubt anyone is going to do much more than that small change at the moment given the apathy. I don't understand whats so hard about changing the shop caps... change a 3 to 6 in some file, are you flipping kidding me, what's so difficult? It kicks the ball down the road for players another 6 months or more, and without another Teker coming along, nothing more will happen.

Complaints about grouping go back longer than 15 years and have never really been addressed.

This quote has been appearing on the crier for as long as I can remember.

Bit -- '95% of the mud is deranged, its just a question of how'

Sloth's a bit like your very old overweight family pet, that can't walk, is dumber than a box of hammers, and frequently craps behind your couch. Doesn't mean you don't love it anyway...

I'm rambling, as usual... let me try be concise.

* There are fewer disagreements about the games issues than there is about what to do about them.
* The game needs 100's of hours of work and the budget currently appears to be about 5mins if that.
* It's not so much that people don't have a wholelestic view and are arguing side points while ignoring the elephants in the room, it's just that we are factoring in whats the best change we can make for 5mins work.
* You can't restructure a game with sugar, you can however give people at least something to eat for a while.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Insomnia » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:36 pm

Isn't Sloth deliberately limiting solo to encourage grouping? I mean, can kill some 100mil exp mobs, but with my ~12mil exp cap (at 9x40, I'm not a reborn yet), there's no sense in it...

My opinion is that if you want newcomers to stay for a longer time, you should not limit their ability to solo, at least at low levels (and if I were to define "low level", I'd say it's up to 3x40).
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Josiah » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:19 pm

Solo XP is viable for some builds when XP caps are off. When I was still active, I often timed my gaming sessions for nocap houses/days because they were a nice change of pace from the usual 'splork easy mob for cap xp' and 'semi-afk in a group for hours.' I'd be happy to see more playstyles become viable, and addressing caps is an easy start.

I love the idea of awarding significant xp for autoquests. An automated daily autoquest also seems doable; a bounty hunter's guild could demand a random corpse each day for a level-based xp reward. Mobile apps are designed to be as "fun" (addictive) as possible, and every one features daily tasks or login bonuses. The most obvious step to a larger player-base is to increase the number of existing players logging in regularly.

Had to laugh at Gorka demanding Driven run new ideas past the forum before implementation. G, if you didn't spew vitriol at him at every opportunity, he might be a bit less shy. I know he tests things before implementation; I helped him myself on several occasions. He likely discusses things with a handful of trusted players. It is very hard to value input from people who regularly abuse you, so don't expect to be added to that list any time soon.
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Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:44 am

Thanks for your insights about the current state of things Josiah...

Looks like the last time you actually played the scepter of ancient dominion was a couple of days old?

Josiah's last logon was Sun Apr 12 15:40:33 2020

:roll:

You should login sometime, so you can pretend to understand the effect that item had on the game, what it was intended to do, but what it's effects actually ended up being, and what types of players benefited.
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