druid form restructuring

[Dragoth]

Rynquald, everything is very simple. If you want everyone to have the same abilities as everyone else then my arguments will never get through to you. I on the other hand want every class to be distinct with well defined borders ( i.e druid secondary and druid quad should be a different character with a different play-style same as necro secondary and necro quad is )

You ask me how often do i see druids using druid spells in groups - well ask yourself this, how often do you see necros using necro skills and spells in groups ? And on top of that, if forms were to be scaled and tweaked i am sure druids will be able to use shapeshift in groups to a very big extent.

Yes other classes use abilities of the other classes, but you need to make a distinction between prime abilities, like riposte and parry and your average run of the mill abilities - yes we can all fireball and cure minor and double attack and no one is the wiser. Other skills however need to be separated to give that character class a distinction, if you give everyone riposte and parry then warrior really becomes useless doesnt it.
Druids, like a few other classes dont have such abilities that make them distinct and worthwhile and shapeshifting is pretty much all they have, so it must either be very different from what you and i can shift into or better yet it must be scaled, because if you and i can shift into the same thing and you are druid secondary while i am druid 6ths why should we have same forms really ?.
Think of thieves and backstab, yes everyone can backstab and its pretty much the only class defining ability, but its made in such a way that you get less multi's the further down the line you take thief and to make primes from non primes distinct you have apply poison which adds about 30% damage to your stabs.

Ultimately every class has some sort of defining feature, whether its scaled pets or primary only ability or a scaled primary ability, some have all of them. At the moment Druids have none.

As for why i am worried for usable forms for non primes, is for the same reason necro pets should be usable even if you are not a necro prime and thief class allowing you to backstab even if you are not a prime, a class should provide you with some of its abilities ( scaled to its position and not to everyone), thats what make it a multiclass mud where class order is actually important.

And jumping a bit further, yes i do want every class to have scaled skills, same as necro pets and cleric pets scale, i want restores and firewinds to scale. I also want monks to give a much bigger damage reduction which scales with monk's class position and i want armor cap to scale with warrior's position.

I genuinely do not want to see everybody having the same skills and spells which are only different if you are prime or not. With the current system at 8x40 we will have everyone to be just a bag of mana and hp and regen that uses the same skills and spells, but has a slight advantage in his prime abilities and who in their right mind would choose a class that ends up with less mana and regen at the end if all the skills and spells used by everyone are pretty much the same, this only shifts players towards a certain class choice that provides them with more mana and regen. This discourages multiple characters and makes the game ultimately boring with everyone just being a clone.

[Dragoth]

As an example is Th/ma/cl/dr/x/x/x any different than a th/dr/ma/cl/x/x/x or th/cl/dr/ma/wa or th/ma/dr/cl/x/x/x?

Nope its not, if you imagine all those classes at 5x40 they have absolutely the same abilities and depending on druid's position in the class some have more mana regen and more hp but that's it. Anything that goes after your prime class is unimportant as long as it supplies you with a sensible amount of mana and regen. Yes you get some spells sooner than others

This can be applied to any class you choose, nothing matters except for your prime and the amount of mana and regen you get. So the trick to make a powerful char is to have a good prime with good prime skills like warrior and choose supporting classes that give most regen and most mana, cool trick isnt it ?

Simply by making all mage spells and cleric spells scale by 10-20% for each late position and scaling druid forms, you are already making a huge distinction from the current system and redefining the importance of class positions. Th/cl is now more of a healer than a blaster while Th/dr is a shapeshifter stabber. Shapeshifter stabber you ask ? Well why not, instead of blasting a mob after stab you shapeshift into a form that can kick that mob's ass real quick - this makes this thief class a more fat mob oriented class with an utterly different gameplay from th/cl or th/ma.

This can be applied to every class in game simply by scaling a few spells and skills to make every class order distinct and worth choosing instead of one another but not necessary making one class weaker than the other.

By scaling armor class cap -1 armor point depending on its position you can make a huge distinction between a th/wa and a th/ma/cl/wa - which instead of a thief who can cycle fattish mobs will now have to stick to thin and hard hitting mobs. Under the current system none of this matters, you can have war 8th and still have good AC.

By giving monk a big damage reduction bonus you can make this a multi-gamestyle mud. If AC will be scaled then warriors will rely on AC to reduce damage from incoming attacks while Monks will rely on huge damage reduction to mitigate that same damage. Currently under our system a WA/mo or a MO/wa are useless choices because those two classes do not compliment each other and the only bonus you get is a few more hp. With our current system you are much better off making a WA/dr/cl/ma so you can have all the mana in the world to heal yourself, be able to solo and still have decent HP with the same damage mitigation. Under our current system there are no differences to groups between real group tanks and tanks who have 100 hp less but have 400 more mana and 50 more regen who can solo pretty much everything.
The exact numbers need to be calculated but If monks were given a huge reduction that scales back 20% with every late position you are making a huge distinction between group tanks with both AC and damage reduction and solo warrior classes that chose mana instead of damage mitigation.

If AC is made less abundant by scaling and reducing its availability to non prime warriors and monk's damage mitigation is comparable to AC in its reductions then you can make people choose a playstyle that suits them just by choosing between monk and warrior. Some would like mobs to miss them and others like to mitigate that damage instead ( for example thief mobs rarely miss AC so it would be better to pair thief prime with monk and wear dam_reduction eq to get reduced damaged and mages would work better with warrior and AC eq as mage mobs usually miss AC alot ), others like to have both at the cost of reduced mana and regen and blasting and healing (remember that restores and firewinds scale back now too ). I think an 8 class mud can use double tanking standards. There is plenty of dam reduction EQ on the mud to make damage reduction work the same way as AC, the more dam_reduction EQ you get the more damage you mitigate ( same it is currently, but make it comparable to AC, if a monk has capped his damage reduction he has about the same tanking ability as a warrior with -12)

By combining all these scalings you can create a truly multi-class mud with a huge emphasis on your class positions that will affect absolutely everything you do - from how you behave in solo situations to how you behave in groups. This will make people want to try out different characters and this will create the much needed diversity while making every class important and unique.

[Dragoth]

So we all agree with me that that's how everything should be like ?

[Sleeping Forest]

I have held back on posting on this subject for a couple of days to read others thoughts and concerns on this topic. I currently play Roku [40d 40m 40c 25n 20b 19w 13o 12t] a smallish druid prime. While Druid restructuring is on the table i would like to voice some opinions/ideas about the sloth druid class. Druids have always played 2.clerics or 2.mages in groups, identity has always been a problem.

1. Shapeshift is the class defining druid skill. While outstanding at higher levels for solo we are not much use in group when it comes to our shifting. Many times when i have wanted to play like a druid in a group my limited time to be able to hold my shift form compared to the standing regen time it takes to get enough mana to shift back (while being scolded to use my mana) makes shifting in groups very unappealing. Restructuring druid to limit forms in position of classo in my opinion is not the way to go about making druid prime more apealling to players.

1a. Instead of taking forms away from existing players and buffing druid i suggest making the druids use of mana more efficient in position of the class. My outlook on a druid is the class defining skill of shapeshift should be effortless and seamless for a primary. Meaning little to no shift cost and bare minimum mana-burn to be able to hold the form, factoring in the +mr eq and such. (Thus making shifting a viable option in grouping.) I personally find the mana-burn while shifted a very unattractive aspect of the Druid class. Now scaling the shift cost/mana-burn rate for every position druid is moved down the classo sounds like more of the way to "restructure". Wouldn't u think it would be harder/more costly to shift to a form and retain that form the further down the line druid is?

2. Dropping of spells while shifted.

2a. While taking the mana to lite then shift then get halfway through a run and have your base defensive skills fall (ie stoneskin) and have to blow the mana to unshift, respell, and shift again drastically cuts your run. Here i propose maybe the idea of druid iouns such as acorns or something that are memable and then consumable while in shifted form. This is just a off the wall idea, but pointing out problems without ideas for consideration is kind of moot.

3. Awaken spell.

3a. Druids should not have pets. If u want pets play a necro, we have a class for that. Changing awaken to say something like Jezers idea of the whole "hand of nature" theory sounds appealing. That led me to the idea of awaken being another scaled option of say awakening "The spirit of the forest" where this non fighting spirit follows and removes curses, blinds diseases, ect. When the next scaled level is unlocked say "The spirit of the desert" where it casts debuffs like curses or blinds while in your in your shifted forms. But whatever spirit u awaken they are never a fighting supp/pet, more of a support creature.

These are just a few off the top observations.

This is my first post in my 8 year career in sloth so plz be gentle. Flame away boys and girls.

[Shyla]

if bard primes can sing and cast why not give druid primes shift and cast similiarly? if you are worried about overpowering linit wgat they can cast like healing spellsand enhancement only. Not sure if this is even feasible but just a suggestion.
Shyla

[*Splork*]

Actually, I'm leaning towards allowing Druid primes to cast enhancement spells and also really like the idea of mana cost in form scaling back according to position of druid in classo. I really like that idea!

Splork

[Rynquald]

@Dragoth: Didn't check the crier for a couple of days, and to be honest I'm not going to do more than skim that giant wall of text. So no quote-specific replies.

I don't want all characters to have all the same abilities (I preferred the four class system for that exact reason), but I also don't want the only class choice that matters to be prime. I'm not suggesting that this shapeshift change will do that, but every skill that is directly weakened by not having the corresponding prime brings it closer. How much will anyone rely on the skills of their later classes if they're all watered down?

Finally, I'm not interested in continuing this conversation between us. I find your apparent certainty that if someone disagrees with you they must be misunderstanding the situation, along with your tenancy to use condescending remarks as punctuation, incredibly annoying.

[Dragoth]

I also like both of Sleeping Forests ideas, but at the end of the day whether you make forms themselves scale back or you make mana usage scale back with druid's class position the end result is practically the same for non druid primes, but its a certain advantage for a druid prime surely. If players prefer to keep all their druid forms which they are not able to use it due to mana burn then scaling mana burn option is the way to go.
However, this places an even stronger emphasis on the mana of our players, which is already the king.

Acorns for meming sancs and stone skins to be used while shifted - great idea, but why should druids be able to mem sancs to make their runs last longer while nobody else can ?


@ Rynquald and other people i might have offended

I am not trying to put anyone down or be overly rude and aggressive but at the same time i am not trying to win any popularity contests here either. Surely if my thoughts are flawed then it wouldnt be too hard to prove me wrong by using simple counter-arguments.
However, If my thoughts and ideas are correct and applicable then isnt this what matters most and why should it matter how i structure my sentences.

Let us not fight if we agree with each others thoughts just because we dont like each other's way of communicating those thoughts!

And If i offended anyone with my condescendence then i am sorry and i did not mean to do that and i do not think any less of you just because i do not agree with your ideas, its just the way i debate

[Archimedes]

Sleeping forest pretty much hit it on the head as to what I find frustrating about druid play.

As to why druids maybe ought to be able to mem with acorns, I don't see it as unfair to other classos since druids can't use any other classo abilities while shifted. Maybe acorns could only be used while shifted so druids are running around with extra mems unshifted.

The awaken idea is great. I like the idea of being able to awaken a spirit that is passive but provides some debuff or other such support. Some abilities I thought may be appropriate for a spirit: curse, blind, poison, provide "mana regen" to shifted druid by lowering mana cost it takes to remain shifted. Maybe the spirit could cast certain druid spells itself such as brambles, fog, twister, etc.
The spirit would serve as the druids connection to its human form while shifted so that it could use some human form abilities.

I would also like grappling vines to improve with druid level like a web spell. It is really annoying having to chase stuff around shifted, or return to set brambles or web. Maybe grappling vine already does this, but I don't think so. In any case it would also be very beneficial to be able to cast awaken while shifted.

Anyway, just my two cents.
Archimedes

[jezer]

[jezer]

If druids in the future are given the limited capability of casting while shifted, can I suggest enhancement AND summoning.

Stone and Sanct are in enhencement, but food and drink and shield of thorns are in summoning. (In fact the majority of druid spells are actually in summoning) and if I had to choose between the two I would choose summoning before enhancement.

[jezer]

You raise your hands to the sky and slowly shift into a half-human half-snake (Jezer).
<1548hp 407ma 202mv +4al -8.1ac +9dam +59mr 31390439xp>

You raise your hands to the sky and rapidly shift into an enormous owlbear (Jezer).
<1667hp 331ma 116mv +4al -8.4ac +10dam +55mr 31390439xp>

Hi Druids! Welcome to 4x40. In order to help you along with the continuation of your character to 5x40 you have been awarded...

+1 dam +119hp and -0.3ac -85mvs to get > 13.5 billion xp.

*facepalm*

[jezer]

This is really ticking me off at the moment.

Owlbear form uses moves to swipe. But how many mvs does it give me after I've shifted!

A THIRD! Just a third of my max moves! It would be better if it used mana, at least I could blast more. Of course then haste wears off or I unshift and before you know it I've used 300+ moves in less than 60 seconds. And my moves regen slower than my mana! Who the heck thought this up?

Please fix the moves cap for prime druids on owlbear.

[jezer]

Actually, I'm leaning towards allowing Druid primes to cast enhancement spells and also really like the idea of mana cost in form scaling back according to position of druid in classo. I really like that idea!

Splork

Any news?

[*Splork*]

Just a status update:

Since this discussion, we have been busy working on several changes which should help Druids in our game. We have had to overcome a few obstacles but are making steady progress. Hopefully we will be able to introduce them within the next few weeks.

Enjoy,
Splork