random comments about nothing in particular

[jezer]

AN Indian warship destroyed a pirate "mother vessel" in the Gulf of Aden, the Indian navy said, as bandits demanded a ransom for a seized Saudi super-tanker.

The Indian frigate INS Tabar, one of dozens of warships from several countries protecting shipping lanes in the area, attacked the Somali pirate ship yesterday after coming under fire, navy spokesman Nirad Sinha said.

The incident came as shipping groups reported a new surge in hijackings off Somalia and the International Maritime Bureau said pirates based in the lawless African nation were now "out of control".

"The INS Tabar closed in on the mother vessel and asked her to stop for investigation," the New Delhi navy spokesman said.

"But on repeated calls, the vessel's threatening response was that she would blow up the naval warship if it approached."

An exchange of fire ensued, causing explosions and the navy ship then used heavy guns.

"From what we see in photographs the pirate vessel is completely destroyed," a senior officer said on condition of anonymity.

-------------------------

Kind of funny how many navies are trying to protect boats out there at the moment and seemingly doing a bad job... doesn't look like the Indian's are taking the crap though does it... Full steam ahead! Oh, the enemy is approaching us! BANG! BANG! BANG! *glug* *glug* *glug*

[Tap]

Hrm....I wonder...if the people on the oil tanker were allowed to have guns then maybe they could have just shot the pirates from the get go...no..that would make too much sense...

[jezer]

Yeah, that would have been awesome... the pirates would have taken over the ship and killed everyone as well. The fact they are still alive and are hostages is tribute to the fact they don't have guns.

[Alberich]

uhmm the pirates do have guns

not arming civilian/merchant vessels dates back to the fear of them going pirate or engaging in false flag operations. given the current state of modern weapons, that's almost a moot point (naval vessels that lack air support haven't lasted long in quite some time - see tirpirtz).

giving small arms to the crew and allowing merchant vessels to mount small cannon/heavy machine gun turrets are two different propositions.

[jezer]

You Americans are all the same aren't you.... if you don't like someone/something, kill them. Gotta look out for number one... don't give a toss about doing the right thing cause it's all about me!

So the crew get machine guns... pirates now upgrade to RPG's... where does it all stop? Fight the Fire with Fire?

The crews on that boat are alive because they didn't have guns to defend themselves... and because they are alive, they can be held ransom, which makes the pirates keep them alive. The pirates don't think twice about killing people... they don't need a reason... but if you carry a gun, you give them one, and that's a certainty.

Start arming those boats, and the pirates will used ranged weapons, board the boats and kill everyone under suspicion of being armed. The oil on the boat is as good a ransom as human life... and for you American's once again... couldn't give a stuff about the human lives on the boats... it's all about protecting the oil. Whats a few people getting shot on boats as long as the oil is safe right? You don't know them anyways!

Yes, the pirates need to be stopped... it's a job for law enforcement, not sailers, fishermen and cooks.

[Tap]

I change my mind. You are an idiot.

[Weasel]

[quote="Tap":tl6w0vhl]I change my mind. You are an idiot.[/quote:tl6w0vhl]

I'll second that.

[jezer]

Heh Tap, coming from you, I consider that a compliment!

[Alberich]

they have RPGs already too. or do you not follow the news? standard MO for pirates is RPGs and light machine guns, dissable the engines and the crew are almost never harmed. It is a business in a certain part of the world. The crew are not killed not because they don't resist, they aren't killed because they are worth money - it's highly unlikely the company will negotiation on favorable terms if their employees die a horrible death.
On the same note, if they lose more vessels in the process of their business, the profit model suddenly goes out of whack. The market is a wonderful force

not that i expect liberals to listen to logic

[Rynquald]

[quote="Jezer":2u4tpppr]Yes, the pirates need to be stopped... it's a job for law enforcement, not sailers, fishermen and cooks.[/quote:2u4tpppr]

Law enforcement is out of it's depth in international waters, or the waters of nations unwilling or unable to stop it. It's a job for the combined air and sea forces of the world. But defending oneself is a fundamental human right, no matter where one might be.

As Alberich says, it's a business. Pirates can only be stopped by making their "work" unprofitable. And the only way to do that is by sinking their vessels and inflicting a high enough mortality rate as to make continued piracy unattractive.

I'm sure plenty of people die because these organisations continue to obtain supplies from piracy.

Finally, this:
[quote="Jezer":2u4tpppr]Start arming those boats, and the pirates will used ranged weapons, board the boats and kill everyone under suspicion of being armed.[/quote:2u4tpppr]

Bringing a light vessel up beside an oil tanker, throwing ropes up the side, and finally climbing three stories up to the deck would be difficult while under fire.

[Weasel]

Can't help but wonder if Jezer is just saying these things to get a reaction, not because he actually believes it.. surely.

[jezer]

[img:2n414o6k]http://www.maximumeyewear.com/productfolder/safety-glasses/wood-chipper-goggles/wood-chipper-goggles.jpg[/img:2n414o6k]

I'm trying to look at things with a different perspective... The world tends to look at things in terms of "justice" and "fairness."

For example, if someone shoots someone else... justice says that man should be punished too an equal... or qualifying... amount.

What I am attempting to do is look at issues through "morality."

So for example, because I am shot... to shoot someone back as payment makes me just as bad as that other person, in an ethical sense. (Out of ill feelings about the past I would have reacted in the same way, as someone who mistreated me, therefore making me just as "bad.")

It seems in this world, more often than not, what people fight against is often what they end up becoming... (for example, in 5 months, Weasel will become an Obamaite... ok... bad example, but how many people try not to follow there fathers example and still end up becoming violent and alcoholics?) "Justice" and "fairness" are amoral quantities... neither right nor wrong. So this system WITHOUT moral variables... actually requires the need for "pay back" which in turn causes escalation. (We see it in wars/guns/fear) Each action is retaliation through justice.

There is something bigger than justice... It's what I'm looking for... so cut me some slack. I don't have my idea's worked out tightly... and it's why I like to apply them to situations, I am testing them myself.

See this "thing" that's bigger than justice... it looks far bigger than pirates... it says... should this oil even be transported to this country, are they fairly paying the workers... it asks lots of questions, it tries to figure out whats right, cause clearly the world is a messed up place, and as long as we keep doing these things to each other... something ain't right!

I can tell many of you don't care for the morality/ethical argument, being able to retaliate against people who hurt you is enough for you in life... under the law of justice... I guess I'm asking myself why. Because essentially humans are all the same, just different by the product of their culture/belief and upbringing... so why do we treat each other like this... what are we holding onto that needs to be let go?

I know this is idealistic... but people's beliefs... even idealistic... change people, and this journey, without end, I think changes people for the better as it attempts to grasp who one is, and how he should react with others.

[Rynquald]

Shooting someone who's about to shoot you, or indeed, returning fire towards pirates attacking a ship you're on, has nothing to do with justice.

As for fairness, fairness is something that happens in sports. Real life is not fair, nor does it strive to be.

I could go on to systematically answer all the points that I can pick out of that post, but I think the following statement will make a better point than a simple counter argument; Attempting to quantify absolutely everything that happens in the world against arbitrary rules of morality is an extremely dangerous path. You state yourself that humans are products of the culture that they're raised in, and I couldn't agree more. But morals are a facet of culture, and when multiple sets of morals are in opposition, they can create conflicts to match any search for justice.

[jezer]

You assume, that my "moral conclusions" will be "pressed" on others causing conflict... but that's actually one thing I've discovered...

To press my beliefs on other people... is actually immoral and unethical, I can only speak of my ideas peacefully. It's up to people to take them on board.

The idea's are about making me a better person, not changing the world... Because we can only account for our own life, and our own dealings. You can drag a horse to water... but you can't make him drink.

[quote:1fqzn6c6]Attempting to quantify absolutely everything that happens in the world against arbitrary rules of morality is an extremely dangerous path.[/quote:1fqzn6c6]

I think this statement is wrong... however to try and press these rules on others would be, and maybe you allude to and fear that? Can you explain why this is extremely dangerous?

[quote:1fqzn6c6]Shooting someone who's about to shoot you, or indeed, returning fire towards pirates attacking a ship you're on, has nothing to do with justice. [/quote:1fqzn6c6]

What does it have to do with? Why am I right to shoot them, and they are wrong to shoot me? Whats it really about then?

[Rynquald]

[quote="Jezer":147hbznr]You assume, that my "moral conclusions" will be "pressed" on others causing conflict... but that's actually one thing I've discovered...[/quote:147hbznr]

Normally that's what happens when people hold strong moral views, but I'll concede that it's a generalisation, and not inherent to morals.

[quote="Jezer":147hbznr]To press my beliefs on other people... is actually immoral and unethical, I can only speak of my ideas peacefully. It's up to people to take them on board.

The idea's are about making me a better person, not changing the world... Because we can only account for our own life, and our own dealings. You can drag a horse to water... but you can't make him drink. [/quote:147hbznr]

Mostly I can agree with that. But to play with your metaphor, people need to remember the later part before the dragging begins.

[quote="Jezer":147hbznr][quote:147hbznr]Attempting to quantify absolutely everything that happens in the world against arbitrary rules of morality is an extremely dangerous path.[/quote:147hbznr]

I think this statement is wrong... however to try and press these rules on others would be, and maybe you allude to and fear that? Can you explain why this is extremely dangerous?[/quote:147hbznr]

Once again, any given set morals normally does end up being applied to those who don't agree with them. I'm also starting to find constant accusations of fear in those who disagree with you tedious.

[quote="Jezer":147hbznr][quote:147hbznr]
Shooting someone who's about to shoot you, or indeed, returning fire towards pirates attacking a ship you're on, has nothing to do with justice.[/quote:147hbznr]

What does it have to do with? Why am I right to shoot them, and they are wrong to shoot me? Whats it really about then?[/quote:147hbznr]

You have the right to shoot them (as against being right to shoot them) because they are attempting to take either life or possession's against almost universally agreed upon law. It is really about protecting yourself and your property.

Surely you distinguish the aggressor from the defender?