Game, set, match.

[jezer]

[quote="Poggle":1tkgv05c]I have not seen any evidence, just claims.[/quote:1tkgv05c]

Congratulations Poggle on trying to draw out this thread, with more links to biased and opinionated newspapers and stupid "proof I'm right" pictures. I laugh so hard when I read these things. So lame and focusing on the smallest of details to make infinitely bigger points than they can hold.

[img:1tkgv05c]http://www.funxite.com/media/136-fighting-squirrels.jpg[/img:1tkgv05c]
Republican! Democrat! Socialism! Take that you scurvy dog!

[Poggle]

My hope was simply to remove the stupid claims without real evidence, not make sure the stupid claims had stupid evidence to back them up.

[reboog]

To Weasel:

[quote:3h00kv0o]
Such a country would be more stable, Bush argued, and more prosperous. "America is a stronger country every single time a family moves into a home of their own," he said in October 2004. To achieve his vision, Bush pushed new policies encouraging homeownership, like the "zero-down-payment initiative," which was much as it sounds—a government-sponsored program that allowed people to get mortgages without a down payment. More exotic mortgages followed, including ones with no monthly payments for the first two years. Other mortgages required no documentation other than the say-so of the borrower. Absurd though these all were, they paled in comparison to the financial innovations that grew out of the mortgages—derivatives built on other derivatives, packaged and repackaged until no one could identify what they contained and how much they were, in fact, worth.[/quote:3h00kv0o]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/163451
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 809-9.html

Love,
Reboog

[reboog]

Arnold Kling says that there is a huge divide between those who make the policies, and those who actually understand the policies. I doubt anyone in the house truly understood what they were passing. He calls it "suits vs. geeks."

He also says that there is evidence that the geeks kept warning against these high risk mortgages (which were classified as low risk thanks to regulatory loopholes), but the suits ignored the information/didn't get the information in the first place.


On a side note, take any politician, Republican or Democrat, and find one who would prefer to say "No, if you can't afford a house, you shouldn't be in one" vs "Every American family should own a house."

[Tap]

Not all banks "participated" but more than enough gave in to loans that shouldn't have to avoid negative publicity ala "that bank is racist" blah, blah, blah. It's a proven fact that the government had policies that penalized banks and pulled funding if said bank didn't "approve" certain loans.

[quote:259tyflz]On a side note, take any politician, Republican or Democrat, and find one who would prefer to say "No, if you can't afford a house, you shouldn't be in one" vs "Every American family should own a house."[/quote:259tyflz]

Every family should have the opportunity to own a home. But they should earn it and not have their hand held out and cry boo-hoo. I can't tolerate people who try to get by in life without having anything to contribute.

Poggle, it is hard to prove something. I find it almost impossible to prove that a man who sat in church for 20 years while the pastor bashed America and said AIDS was invented to kill the black man did not in fact know that such speeches took place in services. I also find it impossible for a man to not be associated with a terrorist who claims that "hey, I was 8 at the time, I didn't know" to not have 1, just 1, person pull them to the side and suggest that hrm...this guy bombed the Pentagon and a police station and isn't remorseful. I have to wonder about a person who doesn't have someone to have their back or give them a heads-up when something isn't quite right.Hell, Charles Manson could be paroled tommorow. I wasn't even born when those people were killed. Guess what, I wouldn't associate myself with him at all. A third point of many..I especially would find it hard to prove that a man was in fact well aware of who and what ACORN is/does. So what if I worked for them at one time. So what if I gave them a couple 100 grand for "services" So what, I tried to get them an additional 25 billion dollars from the recent 750 billion dollar. So what if ACORN registered untold numbers of "votes" on my behalf. I don't know anything about ACORN. And you can't prove otherwise.

GMAFB

[Weasel]

“The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream” is a Clinton-era document. The National Homeownership Strategy began in 1994 when Clinton directed HUD Secretary Henry Cisneros to come up with a plan, and Cisneros convened what HUD called a "historic meeting" of private and public housing-industry organizations in August 1994. His administration went to ridiculous lengths to increase the national homeownership rate - it promoted paper-thin downpayments and pushed for ways to get lenders to give mortgage loans to first-time buyers with shaky financing and incomes. It’s clear now that the erosion of lending standards pushed prices up by increasing demand, and later led to waves of defaults by people who never should have bought a home in the first place."

There's heaps of links, and you're not going to read them all if I post them, but what has this got to do with Obama? I mentioned it before because I get sick of democrats always blaming Bush for everything, when they've had the majority in Senate and House for the last 2 years and have done nothing about it.

Just look on the internet, all Obama's connections are clearly documented, what is the point of getting me to repeat them again - you have absolutely no intention of checking them out for yourself or you would have done so already. The point is moot - Obama supporters think Obama is not a socialist and refuse to even check out his shady background for yourself, and nothing anyone says or does and no amount of proof will convince you otherwise, even when Obama says it himself! That much has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated here already. That is how a cult members respond when presented with evidence counter to their claims too, strangely enough.

I wish I was wrong about Obama, because it looks like he's going to win, but all the evidence and HIS OWN WORDS say otherwise. The USA and the freedoms and Constitution it is based on are soon to cease to exist. You vote for the socialist republic of america, that's what you're going to get. As for Obama's tax plan, it's a ill-conceived welfare plan:
http://www.wsj.com/article/SB121910303529751345.html

How about Obamas 95% tax break? Or is it... have a read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

[img:2ic69rki]http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AI343_1taxcr_NS_20081008232813.gif[/img:2ic69rki]

Obama is promoting a 90day foreclosure moratorium. Hillary Clinton proposed the same thing last January, and Obama said it would be disastrous.
http://agonist.org/tina/20080221/hillar ... e_remedies
and what happens on day91? Nothing's changed, it's just free rent for 3 months for irresponsible people.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Obama wants to eliminate the 401(k) withdrawal penalty for 2 years! People borrowed against the equity in their houses to fund things they couldn't afford and look what happened. Now Obama wants them to do the same with their 401(k)? This will wreck their retirement savings in the long term, and those who are responsible and don't draw on it will end up subsidizing the others (spread the wealth, remember), and additionally a mass of people withdrawing on 401(k) will force a mass stock sell-off, which again will send the markets and the economy into a nosedive. Again, the responsible people will be left to pay for it.

This is all socialism 101. You are rewarded for not working and being irresponsible, and penalized for working hard, saving, and being successful. It has been tried many times in world history, and failed every time. But you want to vote for it.

Go look up Obama's associations yourself, I'm too disgusted to read through that again. I don't see much point continuing with this. It will not matter what proof you have, you will continue to deny it. That much is blatantly clear from Juggleblood's responses.

[alias]

Freedom from being wiretapped w/o a warrant?
Freedom from being put away w/o a trial?
Freedom to make my own choices about my body?
Freedom to carry my handgun for personal protection? -
oh wait already lost those...

Got pulled over the other day and first thing I told the cop was I have a permit for personal protection and my weapon was in my center console of the car. Before I could blink I was jerked out of my vehicle and searched by one officer while another went through my car looking for "stuff". After not finding any "stuff", other than my glock, I was asked to produce my permit and on doing so was given a warning for running a yellow light and told to have a nice day.

[*juggleblood*]

[quote="Weasel":i7olmdzp]

[b:i7olmdzp]Listen, if you [i:i7olmdzp]want[/i:i7olmdzp] socialism, then just say so, and we'll have nothing more to argue about.[/b:i7olmdzp] That I can accept and respect. It's the complete denial of facts that are right in front of your face that I've had a problem with.[/quote:i7olmdzp]

Do I want this thing weasel calls socialism? No. I want this thing Obama calls democracy.

My feeling toward the government is that it should work. And it should leave me the hell alone as long as I'm out here working my butt off and feeding my kids. I'm not giving Obama a green light to implement some kind of ideology that requires my participation in any way. If anything, they need to be helping my ass, getting houses fixed up and insulated. If they want anything from me, they know where to find me. I'm here in my house with my gun and my dog.

I just want you to admit that the Republican party is a joke and so is candidate McCain and Palin.


Edit: I feel your pain Todd. This summer I was accused of stealing gutters, of stealing copper, and questioned in the disappearance of my roommate who had only been missing 8 hours. My best friend was accosted in a canoe and searched even tho he had a fishing license and life jacket. You are guilty until proven innocent in Indiana.

[jezer]

[quote="alias":11kf4z95]Got pulled over the other day and first thing I told the cop was I have a permit for personal protection and my weapon was in my center console of the car. Before I could blink I was jerked out of my vehicle and searched by one officer while another went through my car looking for "stuff". After not finding any "stuff", other than my glock, I was asked to produce my permit and on doing so was given a warning for running a yellow light and told to have a nice day.[/quote:11kf4z95]

Next time switch out of Undead Control Eq before you leave the house... you will arouse less suspicion.

[Weasel]

[quote="juggleblood":gkobmdmx]I just want you to admit that the Republican party is a joke and so is candidate McCain and Palin.[/quote:gkobmdmx]
And what would that achieve? It wont change what Obama represents. McCain has almost destroyed the Republican party, and again I will say I am no McCain fan - I don't think I have said otherwise. If I had a choice, it would be neither McCain nor Obama, but realistically that is all there is to choose from. For me this is not a matter of choosing the best candidate, but eliminating the worst of the two candidates. That would be Obama in my book.

[quote="juggleblood":gkobmdmx]My feeling toward the government is that it should work. And it should leave me the hell alone as long as I'm out here working my butt off and feeding my kids. I'm not giving Obama a green light to implement some kind of ideology that requires my participation in any way. If anything, they need to be helping my ass, getting houses fixed up and insulated. If they want anything from me, they know where to find me. I'm here in my house with my gun and my dog. [/quote:gkobmdmx]
Sorry, but Obama is for [i:gkobmdmx]bigger[/i:gkobmdmx] government, so don't count on them leaving you alone. I won't go into detail, but about that gun - Obama rarely gives a straight answer to any question, and his stance on gun control is no exception. His past voting shows he is against gun ownership (despite it being a Constitutional Right). He [i:gkobmdmx]does[/i:gkobmdmx] give some fluff about making sure there are areas (national parks?) set aside for hunters (and anglers too), but he is against any guns within city limits, and unclear beyond that - I'm guessing he's against guns anywhere if he wont give a straight answer. It's not a big issue to me, but it may be for you since you mentioned it. This is not meant as an insult, but you actually sound like a Republican in that paragraph, strangely enough. If I had read that and nothing else from you, I would've assumed you were voting against Obama. Go figure.

Here's a link on his gun control policies, see if you can figure out how it effects you.
[url:gkobmdmx]http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm[/url:gkobmdmx]

[*juggleblood*]

Yeah, but where do you get your information about what Obama represents? Do you really believe Fox News is fair and balanced? Do you really think people like Lou Dobbs on CNN are real journalists? Your commie pinko rhetoric that you like to paint Obama with is just silly.

[Weasel]

Just edited my last comment, including adding a link if that helps. As for the media.. wouldn't trust them as far as I could spit 'em most of the time. The bulk of the MSM is clearly pro-Obama, with a few exceptions who find going against the tide equals controversy and therefor bigger ratings. Generally speaking, their motivation is neither truth nor responsible reporting, but whatever generates the most attention. That's just my opinion though.

I try to look at various sources and look for hard evidence or at least corroboration from more trustworthy sources. Also voting records are good, professional interpretations of policies from non-partisan sources etc. Even professional affiliations I have like the AICPA often prove a good source.

[Mosaix]

Weasel you give the Bush Administration a free pass on its socialst actions, so your argument about Obama being one goes no-where.
Other than hating democrats I dont see your point. If you really hated socialism, you would be showing disgust to both parties. Including recent socialist actions taken by the Bush Administration on banks and bailouts. Corporate welfare. Its free market capitalism and deregulation....oh until the rich banking buddies need a government bailout at taxpayer expense. To hell with that.

So really you wore out liberal, so now you use socialist.

Turn of Rush Limbaugh and think for yourself. Limbaugh is total poison. That is no way means like and vote for Obama. But damit you dont make much sense other than spouting right-wing trash talking points.

I used to enjoy being a fiscal moderate Republican. Those days are gone. I registered Independent now. The Republican party has gone hard right, and left the moderates to fend for themselves. Neo-Conservatives dominate the party policies.

Thus you are seeing why McCain is getting his ass kicked in the polls. You cant win a major election without the centrist/moderate voters. There are not enough votes on the right or the left. Obama has done a better job of connecting with moderates, and thus is getting their support across the entire country. Obama gets my vote this year. Good luck cleaning up Bush's mess.

[*juggleblood*]

so what do you think obama is going to to socialize the country?
nationalize the banks? oh wait done already.
nationalize health care system? oh wait both parties support that
nationalize the housing market? nope, that's the McCain plan, to bailout the mortgage loans directly.
create work programs? I hope so.
nationalize education? Bush already pinned school funding to school performance and doubled the size of the dept of education
make college available for all? we already give out student loans to anyone who wants one.
make military service mandatory? doubt it. good luck with that.
increase welfare handouts? probably, but we'll probably be in double digit inflation after this 2.2 trillion dollars of bad debt the gov is buying. Any increase in welfare is going to be less than the inflated cost of living.
Shrink military spending? I hope so.

[jezer]

A good first start by any government would be to confiscate pooka's glock. Do you trust a necro with a hand gun?... I sure don't. That's got Socibamacainrepdem stamped all over it... and we know what that means... no almonds in the fridge.