Quest Rewards System

[Rynquald]

Firstly, I would like to say that the Quest of the Celestials was the best quest in some time, many thanks to Akasha for putting in what must have been many hours of hard work to set up and run it for our enjoyment, and everyone who participated.

I will say here and now that I don't begrudge the recipients of any rewards from the quest in any way, but the system by which equipment was distributed was the most disgusting mockery of fairness I have witnessed on this mud in a long time.

I will not directly quote lines from logs in this account of the proceedings, nor will I speak in names, as I'm sure most of us keep our own logs from which we can reference anything we so desire.

At first after the quest, it was determined that the leader and tank would take a pick, and then everyone else would gjob the item they wanted, and random between people with the same desires, a system that could generally be agreed upon as fair. It was after several items were randomed for, when two extremely high value items, both gjobbed by a large number of people, were given away outside of the system that things took a downturn.

Several more items were randomed for, and while I must admit that my neutrality may have been somewhat compromised over the next matter due to my direct involvement, I still feel the manner in which it was executed sets it well apart from the rest.

When it was time to random for the Ring of the Assassin (another item for which many people were vying), it was announced that the random would be limited to prime thieves, although the ability to directly use an item was never specified as a condition of eligibility to contest for it when gjobbing was started. Several people playing non-thief characters at the time of the quest, including myself, believed that it was simply limited to people that possessed a prime thief character, and therefore randomed for the ring.

I must point out that before randoming for this item, the question of whether it was restricted to the character currently being played was posed (by myself, specifically), but received no answer until after randoming had been completed, After randoming, when the victor was playing a non-thief character, but did possess a prime thief (again, myself, although I would feel similarly affronted regardless of the non-thief winner) randomming was immediately overruled by the supposed need for the high roll to go to someone that had chosen to play their thief at the time of the quest.

No other items were required to be usable by the current character of the winner of randoming.

I fully expect to be flamed by the majority of the mud for this post, but I simply can not be silent about the disorganized manner in which quest rewards are distributed at present, and the pressing need for a standardized system to be enacted.

As a final note, I will repeat that I do not begrudge any winners of quest items in the slightest, regardless of whether or not they are one of the people indirectly mentioned in this post.

[Yasik]

Thats why i stay away from all quests where rewards are distributed by human beings.

[brady]

There are going to be the dissappointed regardless of how eq is distributed. Personally, I think randoming rewards the complacent but that's just my opinion. In the end, we were all rewarded.

Thanks Akasha...very impressive and appreciated!

Thanks Atwell...your patience was equally impressive!

[Nascosto]

I never seem to get items in these quests and that's ok with me - the drachma (and fun) was more than worth my time.

Thanks Akasha, Atwell etc.

[Yinao]

I was in the same boat as many others with the ring of the assassin, however, I stayed till the end of the system where some people got what they wanted and some got what they didnt want. Did I mind that some other players characters got rewards after the Immortal directly didnt want to repersonallize a thief prime set of personal sleeves for their alt but anther char scores a ring of the assassin for their thief? There isn't ever going to be a "right" or "fair" way to pick eq out of a bag. The only way to make it fair is make duplicates and if you want one you get one which is never gunna happen.... I got eq that I coulda solo'd to pop but who cares I enjoyed the quest and got drachma I'm happy . I dont plan on not entering a quest just because of the quest eq handing out. Handing out any eq is better than just drachma for all and no eq .

[Akasha]

There is no quote unquote fair system of handling eq distribution in quests. This is one reason I have stayed away from running any quests for several years. I said it last night, and I'll say it here, I would have uesd the same method as Atwell to distribute eq, random rolling for want and need.

Much the same sytem is used in MMORPGs, and much of the same protests arrise with those games as do here, so I fully expect ppl to not be pleased and others to be peachy-keen happy.

My next quest (whenever that might be) might use an alternate method, but I think a lot of people would be highly pissed, but maybe not. It would require a lot more work on my part, esp if the mud decides to go boom every 5 mnutes again

Have each mob pop a piece of eq, then on the spot roll for it... period. Afterwhich, if you leave without further contributing to the quest, the item can just go poof and you can be blocked from the rest of the quest, This method would only allow for 4 or 5 pieces of good eq to be given out and the rest would be drachma or eq that most people wouldn't want anyway.

Another method is to have a numbered list of items that only I know the order to, ask each person in the group from top to bottom to pick a number between 1 to X and give them the item that corresponds with that number. This is an evil method, but it prevents anyone from saying it was unfair.

All in all, the quest was a success.. I was disappointed that a couple of my primary toys were disabled because of group size, and the story got kinda smashed with the crashes ( I got tired of resetting the story-line mobs after the 5th or 6th time).

Overall I prolly wont be holding another quest of that size for some time (not because of anything that happened or didn't happen, just because its stressful for everyone involved - not matter how fun it is). I have some in-promto quests that I might run over the next few months (similiar to the mini quests), but we'll see what happens

Glad you enjoyed,
Akasha

[brady]

Or you could just up the drachma, and screw the eq. People are going to either gripe that the eq always go to the same people (even though they probably brought the most to the table) or they are going to gripe because randoming for quest eq is bullshit. Up the drachma so everyone can get something that they actually want and maybe throw in something extra for the leader.

[12345]

When you got 60+ people in a quest group there's really not much you can do besides random. It gets really hard to keep track of who contributed what.

I've been messing around with an idea that I'm hoping works a little better. Probably won't, we'll see.

[brady]

In a large group like yesterday's, it would make sense to vote on the top 6 or so pieces and random for the rest. There are going to be people that go the extra mile and people that hardly even pay attention. The rewards should really be a reflection of that.

Alas, it was Atwell's call and he did a great job under less than ideal circumstances. Just my 1.5 cents...

[Rynquald]

Just clarifying, I was in favour of randoming, and for this instance I was defining "fair" as a system in which there is no room for manipulation, criteria that randoming meets perfectly, until it is ignored when it suits certain people.

Fair is not everyone receiving the same benefits, fair is not even everyone receiving something, fair is everyone getting a chance -even one as small as with 20 people randoming- to receive what they desire.

Also thanks to the people that replied for not merely telling me to stfu, and actually stating opinions.

[Atwell]

I attempted to distribute equipment in a just manner. The system I used was certainly not egalitarian; I did not intend it to be such. I used the following principles to guide my decisions:

1) We should reward those who make unusual contributions with greater priority than those who participate indistinctively. For this reason, I allowed three people to pick their item and skip the random process.
2) Equipment belongs on characters played earnestly moreso than on players played casually. When a player values one of his characters above all his others, he brings that character to quests. It is by this judgement that I restricted a roll to prime thieves actually present.
3) Equipment belongs in the hands of those for whom it effects the largest proportional gain in power versus optimal play with in-game equipment. I considered this principle in similarly restricting a roll on a piece of necromancer-oriented equipment.

I list these in rough order of priority; they do conflict at times. I also applied principles 2 and 3 inconsistently, and this much was a mistake. I should have placed classo restrictions on all the out-of-game equipment, or on none of it. Furthermore, I would have announced this when asking for gjobs.

A purely egalitarian system, such as randoming for everything or junking everything, certainly would have been simpler and less contentious. I do find a lack of justice in random rolls. So far they appear to be a necessary evil, but I attempted to mitigate their influence by applying the above principles.

I would love to find an equipment distribution scheme that everyone can find contentment with. So far, I haven't seen or imagined one. Here are some of the systems I have seen used, with the number of times I recall witnessing their use:

1) Leader picks, then the "star player" (person who found many clues or such), then tank and down the prot order.
2) Each player gjobs a vote for the player who will pick next. In practice, this works very much like method (1) for the first several picks.
3) Each player randoms; highest roller picks one item and leaves. Repeat until all items are distributed.
4) Only one notable piece of equipment; leader takes it.

The third method attracted the least murmuring. I do not know which was regarded as most just. I didn't particularly like any of them, so I used a hybrid of (1) and (3), but with the controversial classo constraints. I also did things in the wrong order; even assuming no either changes to the method, it would have been better to have all three priority pickers choose before asking everyone else to gjob their interests.

I regret that you regard my actions as disgustingly mocking fairness, Rynquald. I welcome discussion on the validity of my principles. the soundness of my implementation, and proposals for a better system.

[Rynquald]

I think it's at the leader's discretion to pick a system that suits them, whatever it may be, I solely have a problem with the system seemingly being changed on a whim in the midst of distribution.

I do appreciate the difficult position a leader is placed in at the end of a quest, which is why my prime point (I realize I stated as a minor point compared to the illustration of this quest at first, and I apologize for any confusion) is that we need something that is accepted to be used to distribute eq for all quests, not something made up on the fly when everyone's tired and just wants to clean up the end and go to bed.

[Mosaix]

Thanks Akasha for what was a ton of fun the last 2 weeks. The build up, mini quests and end quest were all fun.
I especially enjoyed the mobs, some of which did new stuff that was fun to die to and figure out how to defeat the mob etc.

The drachma was excellent. Without a doubt the most ive ever seen in a quest series.

The eq at the end, was the most good stuff ive seen ever. The total of the bag of goodies was quite pleantiful.

Now to comment to this thread.

Ive posted already in another thread recently about things that I think could be done to fix the quest eq system.

1.) Cap players ability to take quest eq say at 2-3 pieces.
"flag" a player each time they take quest eq. If a player wants to trade in a piece to take another piece they can do so, and the traded in piece goes to the pile for the group to pick.

2.) Each time you take quest eq you have to donate "something" to the group pile. Everyone here has enough junk its time to step up to the plate for those below you.

3.) Keep using drachma. Its the "fairest" system that exist and everyone benefits equally. Perhaps simply add more/all quest eq to the shops and thats that except on truly exceptional occasions.

4.) the leader and tank are important and fairly rewarded. At what point does the cleric and mage get rewarded for all their work in quests?
After all the raising and healing my ass is always thrown to the back of the line each quest. Make up some mage/necro/druid/cleric PRIME quest eq.

5.) As a quest ends, those who participate in a quest can ONLY pick for the character that performed in the quest. Example a tank couldnt pull the clericky eq cause it was the best available and put it on his alt lowbie that he/she is working on.

6.) at the end of a major quest, let each player "select" quest eq. As a specific piece of eq is requested to the immortal it goes off the board.
Nekode for example would only be awarded once. I like this the most because all could pick quest eq for the "quest" they participated in.
Cap it at 10-20 pieces and then only let players "select" ingame eq or something if that is too generous.

Now Atwell....

You led what was a chaotic mess and got quest eq. Great.

Though for example why are chars like Madmax/Brady and Myself any less important? Why do we not get the pathetically fair chance to at least random for quest eq. We all did tons of work to keep the tank alive and move the process forward. Hey its OK to reward Clerics and Mages it really is, we do tons of work most of you could give a shit about as long as your paid out.

You system of giving out eq sucked for one main reason. You kept altering the terms of reward.

You picked, toxis picked. Fine.

You then said to Gjob the eq you wanted and the rest would be randomed.
Some people who were the only ones to request a prize got that prize. Thats fine and quite fair.
About 4-5 pieces in, you decide to hand some high prizes to people who maybe led but 1 of the mini's.
Bulllllshiiiittttt. Those mini's first of all were seperate and everyone was rewarded for them at that time.
What should of happend is those high pieces should have been randomed as stipulated by you in the beginning of the hand outs as the way to distribute the eq. This way I and other who work their asses of for leaders like you can at least dream the chance of getting quest eq.
Maybe cause you leaders get quest eq everytime you lead, you cant see that far ahead for the others doing the work for you.

You created reward terms you should have sticked to it cause its what the group agreed to do. You couldnt have finished the quest without the group so really it is unfair to stand up like a dictator and willy nilly the prizes away.

The quest prize system is truly screwed up. And while it will never be 100% fair, it does need to be tweaked so those who do all the actual work, can see the daylight of quest eq once in a while.

I say during the next major quest, both the tank and the leader have to random for quest eq. So they can see what it feels like to walk away with flop after 5 hours burning mana for pigs.

Mosaix/Broc

[Elwood]

I've run a million of them and there really is no way to make everyone happy Dave. I've even just created items that people needed on a personal basis as the quest reward and still had people cry. Sounds like you did a great job and put a lot of effort into it. Good job.

-Elwood

[Ezekiel]

Yes...it is chaotic. That's why you create a system for choosing. With all of the nice eq that was to be doled out...randoming for calls in gjob was an excellent way. Even if the provision about the 'particpant char only' calls was listed at the start of evreyone randoming, i'm sure everyone would have been fine with it. It's just when you have a system to deal with the chaos and start altering that system at your leisure (coincidentally when the best quest items come up)and just start giving away a few and then revert back to the system, you are negating the effort that your group put out and saying that your esteem as a leader is more important than their efforts...which in some senses may be the case, but that's why the tank and leader are rewarded well anyway.

There needs to be some system for large amounts of quest eq if in groups...or simply don't include eq and put in more drachma. I like the idea of putting quest eq in the shops. It's fairer to all and less of a burden on leaders at ending. You can say it's hard on leaders all you want, but randoming for gjob calls aside from tank and leader is a way to be fair. If you want to add that some top producers in the group get a shot at better prizes, much better idea to let the group vote for those who stepped up rather than just be the judge 'because you're the leader'. It's crazy to think that one set of eyes are better than 40. If that system would have been followed, there wouldn't be an issue. The way it was handled makes the leader appear to just be the type to hand out eq to friends if it is of quality, though that likely is not the case at all.

Let the random function and the voice of the group take the blame for being at fault if someone feels slighted. It's definitely more fair. If someone posted a thread bitching about unfair nature by that standard they'd just be flamed. The reason this thread was really not flamed is b/c there obviously was some justification for it.