Reasonable Behaviour: Language & Trolling

[mudder]

First thing I should say is that the vast majority of players on Sloth act impeccibly at all times.
Second thing I should say is that the following is entirely a personal opinion and so should be taken as that an expression of an opinion not some attempt to impose my standards on anyone else.

Bad Language:
At the age of 56 I seen and heard most things, very little upsets or offends me, I do however find some of the language I heard used on Sloth in recent months unpleasant and uneccessary.
Normally I ignor bad language, however I think players should remember that this isn't (to the best of my knowledge) an adults only game.
Language that may be acceptable to your age group and in your culture may not be acceptable to everyone playing.

I was recently playing and in BH scribes a player was coming out with such a stream of foul language (using say) that I typed 'sayed' "language please!" the response I got was (and I paraphrase here) that it wasn't on an open channel so they'd say what the **** they wanted to ****ing say, there was no ****ing rule against it.
This I felt was extreme but I didn't feel arguing would help anything, nor did I want to open myself to more verbal abuse so I left and rented.
In my opinion however 'say' is an open channel, and it makes little difference about the 'open/closed' arguement anyway unless you personally know all others in any 'closed' channel and know they won't be offended.

Trolling:

Trolling or flaming a player is to my mind deliberately attempting to start an arguement or wind someone up.
To a certain extent this is funny and I think is seen my all to be so, however there are occasions that it gets out of hand.
To give an example:
I recently popped a hard to pop spellbook, I didn't need it so I gossiped anyone need ----- sb?
I got a lot of response the first of which was a tell, the next a gossip, in that situation I don't respond to tells so I gossiped back who got it ... the first gossiper. Took the book to them and gave it to them.
The teller, then got upset, telled me repeatedly saying they had 'won' as they'd responded first and I now 'owed them' the book. That I should know the rules of the game and that offering the book on gossip was a contract and I was in breach of contract by not giving to them (mud lawyers eh?) ... this followed by an hours worth of more such nonsense, including visioning, following, trying to loot my kills etc. Most of this time I just ignored them and let them get on with it, when I challenged their behaviour the response I got basically boiled down to I owed them the book, they'd carry on til I gave it to them and there was no rule against what they were doing.
Now if that was another player I knew and had a friendship with it might have been (at least to start with) funny and be seen as friendly banter or teasing, as it was, it was extrememly annoying, so context is as important here as action.

I don't think for either of the above it would be possible to be prescriptive about what what language/behaviour is and isn't acceptable, but I would be in favour of a general rule or statement saying that players should act responsibly and respectfully towards all other players and that offensive and abusive language or behaviour isn't welcome.

Sorry this got so long ... didn't realise I had such a soap box

Anyways as I said, my opinion, take it or leave it as you wish.
Also to reiterate this isn't as far as I can see a widespread problem, the vast majority of players do act responsibly at all times, its just annoying when it does happen.

[Mustang]

just a short response:

regarding vulgarities on 'say' i don't know if there's any rules on it, but i do know some words are censored now on public channels.

here's my peev with such generalized concensus on "exposing the young to vulgarities." stop blaming others (games, movies, tv shows, etc.) for the problems in society. being exposed to a few choice vulgar words won't turn a kid into an animal. the problem is with the family, so look there first. having said that, we do keep public channels, eg. gossip, auction, etc. clean

(2) what the person did could be construed as harassment, and i think that person's probably a big moron....why don't u post his name here

[Harlot]

It is no other than <drum rolll> Mustang!!!!!

Sorry I couldnt resist

[12345]

I think it's funny that someone would spend an hour harassing you when there's much more productive things they could have done with that time.... like actually LOOK for the spellbook.

[Grue]

I don't agree with you about the language thing Mustang. There are 12 and 13 year olds who play Sloth, and I would not want to see language not because I think it will corrupt them, but beacuse if you are at all well-raised you would not use that language in front of a teenager, certainly not in a real life public place.

You point out the obvious that it is up to parents to raise their kids, which I do by not swearing in front of them, not allowing them to hang with kids who do and generally providing a decent but not too-protected environment. I don't let any of my kids (13, 15 and 17) listen to most rap music beacuse the language is unnessecary and does not prepare them for the kind of real-life job i hope they get where they would be fired for using it (as I would be).

Net sad result is I won't let my 13 year of 15 year old play Sloth due to the language of some folks, so we lost 2 players who want to play. I wouldn;t however let them hang with friends who talk like that so it would by hypocritical for me to break that rule just because it's a game I play. Frankly, in real life I would have nothing to do with the folks who really cuss every 3 word on Sloth. I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I have left groups and rented beacuse of language even on grouptell.

To everyone who uses that language I would seriously ask you think about whether you would talk like that in front of you wife, kids, girlfriend, father, mother... If not i dont see why you would hide behind an online char and do it on Sloth. Ultimately you can think before you type, and using that language in any setting where you don;t know that the listener is OK with it (including open groups) is rude and selfish.

[blackmore]

As for the language, I don't believe say should be monitored, no more than I want someone policing what I say to my friends, even if we are in a public place where others can hear. If I shout to a friend from across a crowded restaurant, that's different.

As for the spellbook, the only reason behavior like this is worth mentioning on the crier is if you include the character's name so we can all have fun doing it back to him. It's like giving us candy bars and putting them in a locked container, and refusing to give us the key. I'd rather just not have it in the first place, thankyouverymuch.

In general, the reality is, any time there's a large number of strangers that we're exposed to, a certain percentage of them will be idiots. That's just the reality of life.

[Clink]

We follow a similar paradigm for profanity as real life. Think of public channels as prime time broadcast TV, and everything else as other forms of communication.

We have a policy about no profanity on public channels. We define that to be gossip, quest, auction, shout, and yell.

If you are in a room with someone who is using language that is inappropriate to you it is easy to leave. If you are in a group with someone who is doing this, you can also leave.

With that said, it is unfortunate that people use such vulgar language that people actually decide to take these actions. I would compare walking around the mud using vulgarity on say as similar to walking around the mall talking like that loud enough for other people to easily overhear you. The latter is really rude, even if you think it isn't.

Note that the original poster said nothing about age. Though it seems very hard for some to understand, profane language is not just about protecting our kids from viewing, it is also a matter of personal preference for middle-aged adults.

I personally do curse like a sailor at times, but also try to be sensitive to those who take offense. You can, of course, have no regard for those around you especially on the mud.

I would also suggest that there are ways to gag people and/or profanity while still playing. It's a lot easier on the mud where people in general wouldn't be trying to avoid a personal profanity filter. I also believe in taking action rather than being a victim. Perhaps you could even post the scripts on our forums when you finish them.

Clink

[mudder]

[quote="blackmore":3n76g53c]As for the spellbook, the only reason behavior like this is worth mentioning on the crier is if you include the character's name[/quote:3n76g53c]

I'm not sure I agree with you here, my reason for mentioning it without the name, indeed any of the names involved, was to raise the point that this sort of thing happens and that it would be helpful to have a reasonable behaviour rule to point to.

I'm not interested in arguing the ins and outs of any specific incident, if it came to that I'd just drop the whole thing, I don't have a log of the incident, I said an hour, I didn't actually time it, by definition what I said about the incident was my view on it and therefore entirely one sided, if I'd mentioned the names then I'd get into an arguement about what exactly happened, context, specifics and justifying what I'd written, lifes too short for that and my point is much more general than that.

As far as the language goes I'm not asking for for a 'language police' to be set up that would be ridiculous, just that people think about what they're typing and that if it gets out of hand there be a reasonable behaviour rule that could be referenced.

Thats my piece said, I don't feel so strongly about it that I'm going to start a campaign or argue fervently and regularly on here.

Enjoy.

[blackmore]

[quote="mudder":js1nauv3]
I'm not sure I agree with you here, my reason for mentioning it without the name, indeed any of the names involved, was to raise the point that this sort of thing happens and that it would be helpful to have a reasonable behaviour rule to point to.
[/quote:js1nauv3]

My basic point is we all know idiots exist in this world, we have to deal with them from time to time, and we hope they go away or suddenly become a non-idiot. You were clearly dealing with one. I don't see a reason to create a rule about it.

[12345]

I think a 'Don't be stupid' Rule would be kinda cool. Of course, I would have been banned years ago.

[Weasel]

deleted most of original post - Mudder is not the same person I was speaking with on a similar matter, so this swearing thing has nothing to do with me.

I will say however that those who think that their youngsters (particularly in the teens) will somehow be shocked by the swearing on Sloth, then you need a reality check - unless your kid is homeschooled and doesn't play with other kids at all, then I can pretty much guarantee they'll hear FAR worse on the school playground or on the street or at the mall with their friends than they will ever hear on Sloth. This doesn't mean it's ok to swear like a trooper on Sloth's public channels, but please realize that attempting to impose your values on others will generally not be received well, particularly if the offensive word(s) were not on a public channel.

If it really is a big issue for you, it is relatively simple to add a trigger to your client that will edit out specific words.

Have a nice f***ing day.

[Mustang]

thank you weasel for putting across my views more eloquently than i did
i'm not saying "don't like it get the **** out of sloth!"

different people view swear words differently, and i really don't see being desensitized to such words as being that big of a deal. now i'm not going to be teaching anyone how to parent their kids. i grew up around kids who were in gangs, took drugs, etc. it doesn't mean i'll follow them, as i had proper values (surprise surprise) instilled in me from young. I do cuss on the game, but most of the time it's in jest at certain fellow mudders. saying "that was f***ing hilarious!" is very different from saying "God damned you f***ing ***hole go **** yourself!" my point is, cussing is harmless until it's a personal attack. but i do get the point of the first post...where the focus was more on the behavior of the other party rather than swear words being used.

kids learn "bad" things all the time, and i really think that instead of saying "no you can't do/say that coz u're a kid and u have to listen to me coz i'm an adult" (like that really works) i think it'd be much better off making sure it doesn't become them. Just because I curse, it doesn't make me a punk.

[Mustang]

just another few pointers, in response to Grue.

Fair enough, you keep your kids away because ppl on sloth cuss. But trying to put yourself on a moral high-horse is simply, retarded. Just because I choose to punctuate my sentences with a few choices, and you don't, doesn't make you any holier than thou. I'm sure you go around speaking all politically-correct to make sure you don't offend anyone at all, refering to bald-people as "hair-deficient", fat people as "unfortunately sized" ugly people as "esthetically disabled" etc.

Fact is, sloth is a community. There will be people who swear, and will be people who don't. You know what u were getting into. If you feel it is not appropriate for your kids, you can always buy some power rangers video games for them. Trying to get everyone to submit to your "values" isn't gonna cut it very well.

Just one more point--> this is the internet, where games and chatrooms are a release/retreat for most people. if you think people behave exactly the way they do online and irl, you must be nuts. Most people hide behind an online identity that's probably extremely different.

You're starting to behave like kyle's mom on southpark....and we all know what cartman thinks of her

[Mustang]

thought the nick was familir so i went back to another thread and found this :

Grue wrote:

"Compared to all that I think Splork has actually been pretty reasonable. How about just apologizing and acknowledging you have been an asshole?"

nice choice of words there

[Weasel]