Necro pet (Liches) bugs

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Dragoth » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:56 am

P.S. Even if we all agreed that the current code was crap and needed to be reworked there would have to be a genius solution on paper and alot of immortal involvement to warrant such a huge change which would take months to implement and check for bugs followed by months of ingame testing to make sure its working exactly as intended.

Right now there isnt even a consensus that the current code is bad and yet you keep pushing to promote this thought despite being told otherwise by fellow code-users.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:36 pm

Well, I think that by posting the little bits here the imms will see where the pets are lacking and will decide, whether it's worth an overhaul or not.

If they see they need to change a lot and that a better way to improve pets would be to overhaul, then I'm sure they'll do that (some day, whenever they find time).

Right now, however, there isn't enough information and it's possibly best to tinker with pets as they are. If everything works fine after tinkering, why bother with it later?
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Thraxas » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:29 pm

Fair enough Teron & Dragoth, you dont agree with my 2nd choice suggestion of a complete overhaul, personally I think neither of you have put enough work into finding ways to make necro as it stands work to know a great deal about what you're talking about instead falling back on crier whinging and you've dismissed my secondry suggestion out of hand without putting anything like as much thought into considering it as went into proposing it, but there we go.

So I'll revert to my first and primary position (which Dragoth seems to be ignoring) Necro pets are not broken, they work fine, they can be made to what they should be doing as they are, the class is powerful enough at all levels without being unbalanced no changes are needed and any minor imperfection is so slight as to not warrent coder time to address, there are far more productive uses of such scarce and valuable time. Any whinging about necro pets in this thread or elsewhere is just that, whinging by the unskilled and unimaginative who'd rather whinge about the game rather than learn to play better.

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:16 pm

Thraxas, what made you think that we have done little testing?

What do we need to know/study to understand necros as good as you do?

Thank you.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Tuck » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:21 am

just another silly flame message :P
Last edited by Tuck on Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby *Splork* » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:17 am

This much I will say, we appreciate player involvement and opinions regarding what needs to be looked at and possibly approved with our game. However, we will not be performing a complete overhaul of necromancer pet points. It has taken us years to get the system as balanced as it stands now and starting over is not the smartest option. For the most part, and it is and has been proved ingame, we are happy with Necromancer class and their pets. We do realize that there need to be some adjustments made but they will not be very drastic. The pet point system involves other classes and is probably overly confusing, however it does work quite well for what we have been trying to achieve, at least for the most part.

There are not very many Immortals who are willing to attack this project, as its quite obvious any changes are going to lead to a few players being extremely unhappy that their opinions or suggestions were not listened to or the fact only part of it was. Then this normally leads to Immortal persecution. This thread and our chances to talk to necromancers ingame have made it quite evident to all that very few of you guys can come to an agreement on what, if anything, needs to be changed/adjusted.

When we make changes to a class feature( such as pets), some aspects of that feature are reduced and some are strengthened in an attempt to balance and make the overall usefulness as a whole better than it was previously. The major complaint here is that pet strengths are balanced and their are not enough pets for the 8 class system. We realize both of these points are true and eventually we will have to take a look at the situation. We will not be taking the best pets and basing everything off of them however. Some pets need to be tuned up and some need to be tuned down and this is where we will just have to suck it up, make the changes, and live with the crier complaints.

Overall, we are extremely happy with the Necromancer class which is another reason we are not incredibly rushed to attack this project. When the holiday season comes to an end and a few of us have time again, we will get together and debate what we think is the next project for us. It very well may be this one or it may be another class that needs help a little bit more than this one. For instance, Clerics have nearly identical complaints as the ones I am hearing here and our Bard class is still not a very sought after option...

Happy Holidays all,

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Dragoth » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:22 pm

This is exactly how i feel about it Splork, thanks for responding.

The main thing im always sceptical and concerned about and i have voiced it here already - is immortals making changes to something based purely on the code, without playing the class and without knowing its ins and outs.

It is extremely hard to put together every little detail when you simply look at the code as opposed to when you play the class. When you look at a pet code, you look at it out of context if you will and its hard to judge exactly how it falls into place.
For example, summoning 4 wraiths may seem like dandy business (max hp winners and max damage winners at level 6 avatar), but to summon and buff all 4 wraiths ( stone skin,bless aegis) would take 400 mana. Then as a necro you need to sanc juju and self for an additional 80mana and dont forget wraithform which is another 80 mana! So thats a whopping 560mana spent just to prepare for a run for which you now have 50mana left to heal yourself.
Alright, you may say that i can choose to regen some of the mana after summoning wraiths.
So now lets look at the time required to do everything, 2x40+ animate undeads last 600 seconds +-%5:
80 seconds: To summon 4 wraiths and buff them all and to change back into regen gear ( that is with using aliases for quick eq changes and buffing undeads ).
240 seconds: Regen 400 mana at 100mr ( Ne/dr ), god help all other classes that want to use summon undead pets.
40 seconds: Change into AC gear, sanc self, sanc juju, wraithform self, checking any spells that might need to be recasted before the run.
A total of 360 seconds at perfect execution to start a run at nearly full mana minus self and juju buffs. This leaves me 240 seconds to finish my run before undead crumble. Because necros rely on hitting fat and slow hitting mobs for exp, 4 ticks is enough for maybe 4 mobs, so how on earth am i supposed to make exp? If i start killing low hp hard hitting mobs then one of my wraiths may die and i have to switch into undead gear ( 20 secs ) summon and sanc and bless wraith ( 20 secs ) change back into AC gear (20 secs) and now i have 3 minutes to kill anything and my wraithform will fade away in 60 secs ( Wraithform lasts 120 secs +-20 with enhancement attune). So maybe I shouldnt buff my pets you say ? If i dont buff my pets then they will simply die after 1-2 mob and i need to change gears, summon pets, stone skin/bless them and change back again which eats away at my mana (each wraith costs 55 mana to summon+20mana to stone skin/bless) and my wraithform timer.

How would someone looking at the code know all this ? He wouldnt, all he would look at is pet stats and then pass judgement using it, where it doesnt even come close to painting the picture of what those pets mean in retrospect.
Someone who never played a necromancer and who doesnt consult any of the necromancer players will never be able to make a worthwhile decision or a notable change simply because there is soooo many things that should be in balance.

To me personally, the current system works fine because most of the pets compliment each other in some way or another and let me explain why. I have a different pets for different situations - for long runs i choose to summon 2 banshees and a wraith because even though they deal less damage than 4 wraiths i need less mana to buff them and banshees survive much longer than wraiths so i dont need to stop my runs and make new ones. For short runs i make wraiths because they deal more damage and for boss runs i farm corpses and make liches as they last 1200 secs and allow me to fully buff everyone and start the fight with extra full mana. So all the pets are currently utilized by me and if anything were to change i would obviously lose out on on either of those scenarios.

So what is lacking at my level that i would personally change ? Utilization for Vilewights, they dont fit inside any of my scenarios and are simply useless. Would also be nice to have my animate/summons last longer than what they last by default since im so many levels above their required level, but not really holding out for it.

The only thing that bothers me a little is that after talking with wimpy his 4 wraiths were the best combo up untill 7x40 where he got 3 banshees, even though he had bonesnarls and phantoms added to his pet lists a 5x40 and 6x40, and i find 4 wraiths of little use even at my level since they drop so fast unless buffed, which takes alot of mana and time.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby *Splork* » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:04 pm

Someone who simply looks at the code, such as Kjartan, would never know the requirements you just posted. However, since most of us up here have done what you mentioned thousands of times, I am a little taken back by that post.

Saying that the current Immortals have no clue regarding how the basics of playing a Necromancer are is rubbish. What you just mentioned has been nearly identical since pet inception 8 years ago on S3. Several of us played the class and had to do exactly what you mentioned above and did so perfectly fine. While many of us have not played the class to high level in this version, I seriously believe playing a Necromancer prime to 40 avatar on s3 still gives me and a couple others of us a solid grasp of the intricacies and tricks to succeeding as a necro.

We realize the game is different and there are many things we do not understand because some of us have not had the time to seriously play but that last post sure doesnt sit well with me. Quite a few of the Immmortals have high level characters now and I still play when I can. I do not believe my 17+ years of playing high level Avatars or the last couple of years of playing lowbies should discount my experience as a player.

Either way, this is one of the reasons I strongly consider changes based on personal conversations with players via gchats, emails, and online conversations. I am not nearly as well versed in the classes currently as I have been in the past and when this happens a good leader should listen to those who are.

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Dragoth » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:44 pm

Well, sorry Splork, i certainly wasnt trying to say that every immortal hasnt got a clue about what its like to play this game, but being a realist i do not expect everyone to know how to play a necromancer and the little quirks that one only knows from alot of experience with this class.
I was just trying to point out a potential cause for problems and that there are many more things that should be kept in mind than meet the eye at first.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Thraxas » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:02 pm

Thraxas wrote: ... Necro pets are not broken, they work fine ... the class is powerful enough at all levels without being unbalanced no changes are needed ...
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