Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Teron » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:15 am

Why?
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Hung » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:20 am

If someone thinks bards are powerful enough already then I dont mind of doing rebalancing instead of pure empowering.
I.e. I dont mind parting with the whole stash of prime bard skills: knight's blessing, knight's prayer and 7luck. In exchange for something really useful like original Taron's suggestion.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby *juggleblood* » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:28 pm

Another way to look at it is,

1. You're right. Really high charisma is not essential most of the time. The big perks in my opinion is for the success rates on reign of chaos, sacred reprieve, luck gods. Especially reign, you really want it to be reliable, which means running in the 20's at least in groups.
2. You're right. Charisma gear is fairly well flushed out and it's not that hard to achieve a decent charisma on a limited number of slots.

But where you see this as a flawed design, I see that I'm able to play around with my eq and use a variety of equipment. I don't have to focus explicitly on charisma, and wear that 1 same max charisma set that eveyrone else uses. I can be quirky and wear handdam in groups or work on getting my ac and being a 2.tank, or wear a combination of charisma and healbonus or spellbonus/saves in group. No one cares whether my charisma is 30 or 20 and I kinda like it this way.

It seems like what you're mostly interested in is combat damage / coliseum scores. So play Yang instead of Kid?
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Teron » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:29 am

Yes, we do need reign occasionally, and it means that bards still need to put on near-max charisma on runs, when they don't need reign or they need to:
- learn rapid shift for 50 drachma total
- make an alias to tree, switch to max charisma, and reign.

This could be viable, but like I said, why shouldn't bards wear charisma in their group runs? Sounds completely pointless to be a bard then, other than to sing for forges or 7 luck.

You are right that bards can be versatile by using high-charisma items to wear more ac, heal or regen - and I like it. In the context of my suggestion it only means that the numbers, where the next-level bonuses kick in, need to be lower.

It doesn't mean that rina from a player with 2 charisma should be the same strength as with 20 charisma, nor that rina from a 2x40 bard should be the same strength from the 9x40 bard.

If I didn't understand you, please clarify.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby *juggleblood* » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:55 am

Because to me 20 is not close to max charisma. I can get like 28 or 30 (I'm not 100% sure about charisma cap, but I can make score2 say 30). So for example in dino group I can wear saves gear and still have enough charisma to reign/reprieve reliably. Or if front row is light, I can put on AC and still have enough charisma. Or if healo is light, I can put on regen gear and still have enough charisma. I don't run in groups in max charisma much, and would rather not have to. If gods damage was based on charisma for example, everyone in the group would be concerned about whether or not I was running in max charisma because they like seeing that damage bonus. It would be annoying/not as fun.

Oh and regarding Rina, yes I don't care that charisma doesn't affect the success of the raise. Why should I? It's fine the way it is. I'm more annoyed that the raisers don't just rina for themselves instead of waiting for the bard to do it, because it costs me mana to break my current song and resing it, whereas they could just rina for themselves. They have better mana regen anyway. Let them sing for their raise xp.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Hung » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:05 pm

I am not interesting in coliseum score, but in the xp solo. And to excel in that activity a character needs to have either strong offensive skill(like a monk's focus) or strong defensive skill(like cleric's aerial). First one helps to kill the xp mob fast. Second prevents spending half of mana on heals after receving round of beating.
The problem is a bard is the only one of 8 classes who lacks any of those.
Of course, no one expects a bard to be strong like monk. However, again, I think it is wrong that it is weaker than even a cleric. So I am proposing giving bard's something either offensive or defensive. And I am even ready to part with 3 previously mentioned prime songs in exchange.

p.s. Recently I've found that gods of war seems to not empower grip. Kid's grip empowered by lion chorus does more damage than empowered by gods of war. I am pretty sure stab is not affected by gods as well.
So gods is a song only for groups. Therefore I am now against original Taron's suggestion. As it'll keep bards being purely group class and will prevent them receiving any useful solo skill in the observable future.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby *juggleblood* » Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:08 pm

Isn't helping the group kinda the whole point of the bard class tho? No class can have it all. For example, necro's are virtually useless in group (refer to debuff thread for reasons), but get to have strong solo skills.

Who cares if bard prime isn't great at solo xp, there are 7 other classes to draw skills from. The logical thing to me seems to be for bards to take Druid 2nd, then they can solo using forms. I'm using myrmecoleon currently, and I can't imagine what bard skills you could possibly offer me that would make my unshifted combat superior to shifted. Also there's nothing stopping someone from being a bard that grip/blasts. So while I agree that lower level bard primes are crap at solo xp, I don't see a problem with that.

If I had one complaint about the bard class it's that songs get broken in some circumstances where they should not and intel should have a greater influence over the frequency of song breakage. Sometimes singing can feel quite futile and irritating. Also, is it me or does the 'you are singing to' list seem to get messed up often, including everytime the group moves rooms.

Mostly I can't understand why you favor bard at all? You're more focused on changing this class to be more like monk or warrior, instead of just playing monk or warrior. To me, the bard is the guy passing out charms in xp group, singing boons at xp group, saving the group from eminent death, and soloing eq and autoquests. Giving bard some individualized attack is a non-starter because that was the whole initial concept of the class, that it would be weak in that regard.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby *juggleblood* » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:01 pm

And regarding gods damage not multiplying into stab/grip damage, I can confirm It's contribution to stab or grip is underwhelming. It is apparently intentionally so, not a bug. Might be a good thing to mention in the wiki or something.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Teron » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:52 am

JB, if the group is large enough, we can afford you to move to back row and switch to max charisma.
If the group is small and you need to go to front row and blast/heal, then no one will object to you wearing less charisma.

It's the same with druids/clerics atm, who can move to front row to soak some damage, but when the group gets enough melee fighters, they move to the back row.

As for players not singing rina, I thought you complained about the opposite: that players didn't wait for you to sing rina.

If one day you get to sing a more powerful rina, why not swap songs? You are the bard, after all, so take a break from singing gods and cast something else, just like healers raise after the fight.

This charisma disbalance can be shown that people can choose to get the following eq sets:
- -saves
- + heal
- ac
- +damage
- +weapon damage
- -sys shock
but not charisma.
That's because charisma is not useful to non-bards.

Yang, I've already suggested a skill (resonant focus)/instrument (an accoustic lense)/held low item that allows a bard to concentrate their blast on a single mob in the room:
/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=4659#p37148

I don't see how making charisma more useful will affect the skill above, because:
- the skill is used for soloing
- the charisma suggestions above are used for groups
- ideas to make bard more viable by making charisma useful and by adding the single-target skill aren't mutually exclusive.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Teron » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:55 am

*juggleblood* wrote:And regarding gods damage not multiplying into stab/grip damage, I can confirm It's contribution to stab or grip is underwhelming. It is apparently intentionally so, not a bug. Might be a good thing to mention in the wiki or something.

Still, isn't gods' bonus larger, than the bonus from the lion chorus?

Doesn't it affect the chance to do an excruciating blow?

Thanks.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Hung » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:03 am

JB, it seems to me that when I write "weaker than cleric", you read it as "not as strong as monk or warrior". Forget about monks and warriors and thieves. Let's compare cl/dr with ba/dr. Both are supposed to be group support classes. Both are good at it, doing different jobs though.
Both have access to same broad range of druid forms.
However there's one significant difference. A cleric can cast aerial, wield dark mace, switch to blast eqset and quickly scoop pretty good magestyle xp. Then switch to heal set and scoop sheol village xp as well.
And a bard will spend at least two times more efforts doing same run.
Again and again, I am not asking to make bard strong as monk, but to make it at least good as cleric.
Also there's another issue with charisma being useless.
I think both issues(bard being weakest solo xp class and charisma being useless) could be addressed by one fix. I.e. by adding some real usefulness to knight's blessing and knight's prayer songs.
Also I like Taron's suggestion about resonant focus. However I have some doubts there'll be a coder having slightlest desire to implement it. :)
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Hung » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:20 am

After further discussion with Taron in our chat it was revealed that I read his original post inattentively. I thought he wanted to scale only gods of war. In fact he meant more songs. Including lion chorus.
So I wanted to take back words "I am now against original Taron's suggestion". As now I am that suggestion supporter. If it'll give a few more dam points to Kid's lion chorus(where all damage empowers grip or stab), then I support it.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby Teron » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:03 am

I doubt all lion damage goes into the stab, maybe 1 or 2 at most, and I've already suggested scaling it as well. As in, if you get +3 dam to the chorus, you get maybe 1 dam towards stab (though gods of war might get 2-3 dam bonus to stab at max capacity).

If you want all 4 chorus damage go towards stab/grip (and maybe 10 from gods?), create a separate thread for it.
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Re: Make bard songs (not just blast) scale with charisma

Postby *juggleblood* » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:58 pm

If I made a list of everything I cared about, for the coders to take on, bard melee skills would not even make the list, and my main is a bard.

...and aerial is OP. Just sayin.
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