Go Open-Source?

Please post your ideas to improve our mud.

Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Splork* » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:58 am

Taron,

You are asking somebody who is new to our code, has spent less than 2 weeks inside of it,and hasn't even broken its surface.

He has not really had a chance to even get his feet wet and you expect the poor guy's answers to be remotely correct. Honesty, you get what you asked for, accuracy in a situation like this wasn't going to be the case. He was most likely looking at what affects MAX_DEX has and there are none. However, there is a dex structure ( there is this for all stats )which gives bonuses based on what your current stats are. He most likely didn't notice this, After all, our code is hundreds of thousands of lines and you have to know where to look. I've been inside our code for nearly 17-18 years and I still can't find quick and accurate answers to some questions.

Technically speaking, he is correct though. Max_Stat items simply increases that statistic...

Max dex does exactly what is says in the helpfile, as does all the max stats and their helpfiles, which I spent hours on creating and back tracing through the code.

I am going to say this one last time, there isn't a snow balls chance in hell we are releasing our code and going open source. We will not be releasing our code to anyone other than our programmers and Immortals. If there are helpfiles which players want, please feel free to ask. If there are helpfiles players want us to be a bit more specific, please feel free to ask...

Our game is extremely well documented and we spent a great deal of time recently making it possible to edit and add helpfiles with a click of a button. If we feel a player's request warrants an addition to our documentation, we have no issues doing so.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Hung » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:09 am

Also I would like the administration to review idea of rewarding with drachma/gems code and documentation contributors.
One of the reasons I am not certain about immorting is that I'm not getting anything for my potential work. Of course, you may consider me selfish bastard(and you prob be right). And I know that paying imms drachma/gems for their work contradicts the whole SlothMUD ideology, where you suppose to work for free.
But when that ideology was formed there were no drachma, no gems and even no complex forges. One could easily(comparing with the today) get all items he wanted. So the payment wasnt required at all.
Now times are different. I.e. I have two chars and both need a rhodo rune. And I doubt I'll ever get what I want unless there'll be a miracle.
Also map contributors get payment for their work. Why code/documentation contributors are deprived from that?
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Marvel » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:23 am

Work as an imm doesn't reward your mortals.

Work as a mortal (eg: mapping, help files, wiki stuff) rewards your mortals. You don't need to be an imm to do any of these things. Splork has repeatedly rewarded people for submitting needed help files such as coliseum, juju for necros, and the like.

Immortal work is done because that person loves the game and wants to create things. I did a lot of mortal work before immorting and since then, I've still done both variations of work. If imms got rewarded for their work, Splork and Breeze's mortals would be able to buy every single drachma item that exists.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Hung » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:41 am

If you want documentation to have acceptable quality, you have to be an imm and have access to the source code.
I.e. damage reduction help:
Damage reduction is an innate ability the monk class has to absorb damage
from monsters they are fighting. With each point of damage reduction
achieved, the monk will absorb more damage than previously till they have
reached the maximum amount allowed. The amount of damage absorbed depends
on the difficulty and how hard the monster a player is fighting.

is not informative at all.

Another example: http://www.slothmud.org/wiki/Monk
It states that prime monk gains additional deathgrip modifier, which is simply wrong.
Of course, you may object that I should report documentation bugs. But the problem is one can't figure out there's a bug without access to the source code.
But, ok, source code isnt going to be released.

I think, area building shouldn't be rewarded, because it is now optional and fun for area builders. But what about coding? Especially coding things that arent fun, but required to be done.
And I dont mind at all if Splork and Breeze buy all drachma items for their mortals.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Splork* » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:46 am

We used to have a "Stars" program for our Immortals and we have debated adding that back in. The basic idea is that different contributions were rewarded different amounts of 'stars'. These stars were normally used for restring tokens, if I remember right.

Here is the actual helpfile:
Stars are awarded for immortal contributions to the game. They can be
exchanged for certain items that can be handed to mortals.

Please think about using these items in mini quests or in other ways to
enhance the game - they are not intended just to be rewards for your
mortal characters, though you can use them that way if you wish.

stars list tells you how many stars a player has been awarded.

stars wrap tells you the history of star awards and redemptions.

stars bid allows you to bid for a certain number of stars that you feel
you have earnt. A mail is circulated to the admin weekly, and your request
will be included. Please specify the reason that you feel you have earnt
the stars.

stars give allows you to give a reward to a mortal player. The mortal must
go to the buxcom wench in the Mermaid's Song and type 'receive' in order
to receive the reward. Type 'stars list' on its own to see the rewards
available.

stars add and stars use are admin commands that will increase and reduce
an immort's available stars. Use 'stars use' if you give a reward to an
immort yourself as opposed to their using the wench.


We reward players all the time for different contributions. This can range from helping out a newbie to submitting an extremely bad bug. Those who submit maps or helpfiles are always given drachma. We will never reward in-game items such as gems, sorry.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Splork* » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:57 am

As for the damage reduction helpfile, it gave exactly the amount of information we wanted to at the time. I redid quite a few helpfiles the other night such as weapon damage, spell bonus, etc, and was about to do damage reduction but decided against it because there is a great possibility we are going to take another look at that affect. It needs to be better than it currently is but its going to take a discussion between Immortals to get it right. When we have an agreement and its coded, I will post a more thorough helpfile. That does not mean it will give exact numbers, it may or may not.

As for the issue regarding the Monk discrepancy on the Wiki, I will take a look today or tomorrow and if its incorrect, we will fix it.

I feel the majority of our documentation more than meets the requirements to be labeled 'acceptable quality' when considering the fact this is a hobby, its free, nobody gets paid or makes money. In fact, many of us have contributed to the nearly $20,000 it has taken to keep this game afloat.

As you said, you won't help unless you are rewarded. Well, we aren't rewarded and we will help when we have time and we will help in whatever manner we choose to help. At least we are helping...
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Hung » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:02 am

Btw, how many innate damage reduction one is getting depending on monk's position in classo? I've never found answer on this one also.
"Acceptable level of documentation" means it actually answers on questions. Unfortunately as we see in this topic and in many others the documentation doesnt do it. Therefore, no, it's quality is not acceptable. I apologize again, if it hurts someone.
Believe or not, but I am quite thankful for everything you do. And I highly respect unselfish commitment for everyone's fun. Unfortunately I don't do such things. But I look at things in the terms of efficiency. A commitment can be done for free or for something. But is there any difference from the perspective of consumers of that commitment? No.
I.e. let's imagine SlothMUD went open-source(I know that is not going to happen, but we discuss it in theory). The code is on github. All tickets are open and looking for someone to fix it.
First commiter is unselfish. He got a lot of fun playing the game and decided to pay back. So he chooses a ticket and fixes it. Everyone benefits.
Second commiter is like me. He collects drachma for an item. He chooses a ticket, agrees to fix it for, say, 30 dr. Does the job. Everyone benefits.
Third commiter is deadly tired from annoying issue that spoils his run. So he finds corresponding ticket(or creates new one conforming with the admin). Fixes it. Everyone benefits.
Motivations are different but result is same. Everyone benefits.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Splork* » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:33 am

I will agree with you, we do not meet your criteria in terms of acceptable documentation and neither does any other game of our kind that I am aware of. Actually, most games would not.

Your not offending or hurting anyone with your opinion. Just as I should not be offending anyone when I say that we will run this game however we choose to and see fit.

You can either play and live with what you see as our faults or you can go find a game which is open sourced and has documentation to your liking.

Either way, the game will carry on with those whom want to play and those whom want to contribute.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Hung » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:17 am

I dont think that is fault of the administration. It's rather fault of the system contributions are made. And the admin isn't the one who developed it.
With that system, taking into account the estimated project size, it is simply not possible to keep the documentation at the acceptable level and fix all the small issues(ones that trouble only 1-2 players).
Therefore I propose the systematic solution.
And, yes, the situation is quite common in the world of MUDs. But it doesnt mean the system is right.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Splork* » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:52 pm

Feel free to enjoy Hung's thread on TMC...
http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79291.0

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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Hung » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:29 am

Yes, that topic is quite interesting for me. Therefore I've decided to discuss it with MUD owners to find out their reasons.
Meanwhile, I've found several commercial(!) MMORPGS that have their engines open-sourced:
http://ryzom.com/
http://www.mystonline.com/en/
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Splork* » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:10 am

I am sure there are examples of open-sourced projects for most all types of games available today.

I find the discussion rather predictable :lol: There are plenty more threads on TMC/Mudbytes regarding open-sourced vs closed, which follow a similar path to the one you started. People are basically simply regurgitating what they have already discussed before.

The reasons given to remain closed-source on TMC are extremely accurate in today's MUD world.
Sorry,

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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby *Breeze* » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:07 am

We can't go open source.... Then the players would see the comment in the code that shows command lag was 'borrowed' from my mud before I was an immortal here. I don't need the players to hate me more than they already do!
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Magi » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:01 pm

So... much... hate...!

Wait, I'm a warrior, nevermind.
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Re: Go Open-Source?

Postby Yasik » Fri May 01, 2015 4:07 pm

Did not read the whole post, just subject. My opinion: NO!
You want open source - go get CircleMUD sources and mess as much as you want, as I did in my early days.
Then buy hosting, and let your work go live, and see how many players will stay at least few hours.
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