Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Use this forum for general discussions

Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:30 am

I'm currently buying hp points for about 35,000,000,000 xp each. The "diminishing returns" purchasing formula of rebirth shop works, and there comes a point where buying things becomes soul destroying... it's exactly what the top players need to give themselves even the smallest way to perpetually improve... and without it, I wonder if more players wouldn't quit.

Gorka finished rebirth shop over 1 year ago. Since then I made Tonedeaf, which is also rebirth avatar and purchased all the active damages in the rebirth shop. So therefore I think it's safe to say I am not the only player whose hit the improvement wall.

I am not the only player who wants to keep playing, but feels they have hit the wall. If you feel you are in that position, would you please consider adding your voice to this post.

Now I don't expect the game management to support a full throttle opening of the rebirth shop and an extension of the limits... I'm not against that idea, but I am trying to be reasonable. My suggestion would be to remove the caps on mv, hp and ma regen as a way of opening up more, without being silly about things, as a way of addressing something everybody could use, but doesn't necessarily open up the silliness and imbalances that increasing damage caps creates.

I'm asking the immortals to get their feet wet, not jump in the pool. Could the caps on buying hp, mv and ma regen be removed. I tend to recall that the 10th ma regen in rebirth shop cost well over 100,000,000,000 and I doubt 10 more points would be purchasable in the time frame of a year at these prices, so seems a safe and controlled way to open up the shop to players better. I also wish to point out that available damage has been added to players in stupid amounts, for far less time cost in the past two years, and I honestly think I am making a reasonable request. If we want high level players to keep playing, you have to offer something.
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
User avatar
Gorka
Avatar Poster
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:50 am
Status: Offline

Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:05 pm

Bump! Any response from the people who run the game?
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
User avatar
Gorka
Avatar Poster
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:50 am
Status: Offline

Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:14 pm

We have briefly discussed the possibility of this, yes. I am currently developing a new drachma item that will hopefully address both this concern and the issue of making areas/eq/forges relevant, but it's a big project and will take me time. Between work, family, and ministry I am at my limit, but I will continue trying to make progress on it.
Driven
Double 40 Poster
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline

Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:26 pm

Firstly, I don't see how your artifact would effect the widening of rebirth shop... surely players need to have some form of an outlet to spend xp on improvements if the immortals realistically expect the players to continue killing mobs for xp... (the principal and original objective of the game) Although the immortals seem so absent these days, it feels like expectations of anything or anyone has been lost. :|

Secondly, given that all your proc items have effected the game PROFOUNDLY and in non-traditional ways... have you thought about sounding out your ideas on the forum a bit, so the effects of the new item don't overshadow the game like the other items have in the past?

Teker through his own posts and track record, aligns his changes with "the intentions of the original coders." There is a point where the game changes too much, and it sells out on it's ethos and becomes cheap, for a lot of people that was the start of s4, but s4 is nothing in comparison to the effect your items have had on "player power" in the current version of the game. With each new addition it feels like we get further away from what Sloth represented, and the game isn't becoming "better" players are just becoming more powerful - and that's kind of empty once the sugar rush runs out.
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
User avatar
Gorka
Avatar Poster
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:50 am
Status: Offline

Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:02 pm

I'm sorry that you don't like how I have rebalanced the classes. Just because something "takes a leap forward" does not mean that it isn't "following the intention of the original coders". When I made something take a leap forward, it was because those classes needed a leap forward to gain parity with the power curves of the stronger classes. Even after all of the "leaps of power for caster items", melee classes are *still* stronger than every other class, which means we didn't overshoot. Do you not see that mages and clerics needed a serious boost to bring them up to snuff? Your thinking is far too simplistic.

One of the fundamental problems with SlothMUD was that while the intent of the original coders may have been sound, their execution did not scale properly. Let me give you a couple examples:

(Example 1) Melee class characters do damage primarily through weapons, so as damage increases (i.e. through avatar shop and rebirth shop), damage increases linearly. As such, the damage output over time for a melee class never goes down throughout the course of an hour-long xp run. Casters, on the other hand, rely on mana, which is a limited resource. Yes, they can burst harder than melee, but they hit a hard wall in which their damage output becomes non-existent. As the game has scaled, as our groups have grown to where we can run xp non-stop, that wall shows up very, very early for a caster. Clearly you can see how a caster, sitting on his ass 5 minutes into an hour-long run, empty, casting a spell once every 4 rounds is beyond lame. While melee continues to pump out hard damage, casters just sit on their asses watching the melee players in all of their glory. What was the problem? It was a problem of scaling. When xp runs were 5-10 minutes in length, melee and casters pumped out comparable damage. As xp runs scaled to an hour or more, the damage curves diverged. I'm surprised after all that I have posted on this issue that you are still not understanding this fundamental problem with the game. Was the original intent of the coders good? Sure. Did they execute it perfectly? Hmmm, not perfectly, but I'm not going to be hard on them. They did an amazing job putting the code base together, they simply didn't think about the inevitable endgame of power creep. So be it. We fixed it. Just because you don't like the leap of power doesn't mean it wasn't necessary/important for caster classes.

(Example 2) Consider backstab and deathtouch/deathgrip. The advantage of backstab over deathtouch/deathgrip is lack of lag and high top-end damage--you can follow it up with retreats, circle stabs, firewinds, whatever you want, whereas a monk is eating the first round of damage no matter what. The disadvantage of backstab is that it's not as dependable, you whiff quite a bit. The thought in this implementation was that the advantages and disadvantages balanced each other out. The higher damage output of backstab and lack of lag offsets the lower dependability. Did it work? For a while, but the problem is that it didn't scale. As damage amounts went up (which will happen as the inevitable power creep comes), the stab/grip mobs that are worth killing for xp didn't scale. As damage amounts scaled, the power curve of deathtouch/deathgrip grew high enough that the lag disadvantage become irrelevant. When deathtouch/deathgrip are able to splork the choice xp mobs, the lag becomes irrelevant, and dependability becomes king. This illustrates itself in a concrete way through xp/hour. So here we are, monks thriving and thieves are disappearing. Per the actual equations, damage scaled appropriately for both backstab and deathtouch/deathgrip, such that thieves are still able to burst more damage (2x stab + firewind/circle stab is considerably higher damage than deathgrip/deathtouch), so the problem was not the addition of damage. The problem was that the underlying foundation didn't scale, because as power grew, the deathtouch/deathgrip disadvantage ceased to be a disadvantage. The balance of advantage/disadvantage is gone. I have some ideas on how to alleviate this problem, but it may never happen, because it would involve a 'leap of power' for thieves, which you'll get on your soapbox about how I'm cheapening the ethos of Sloth.

This new item I'm building is not an artifact. And no, I don't particularly want to discuss it. Until you expand your thinking to take into consideration deeper and more fundamental issues, I'm not going to spend my time explaining every last nuance of why I do what I do.
Last edited by Driven on Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Driven
Double 40 Poster
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline

Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Gorka » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:24 pm

Thanks for taking the time out to share your ministry with us. I'll take your post to heart and get some edumacation. But give me time please, not all of us are so enlightened.

their execution did not scale properly

We fixed it.

Until you expand your thinking

I'm surprised after all that I have posted on this issue that you are still not understanding this fundamental problem

Your thinking is far too simplistic.


I'm reminded about a story about a wolf in sheeps clothing and the saying "you will know them by their fruit."
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
User avatar
Gorka
Avatar Poster
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:50 am
Status: Offline

Re: Time to Extend Rebirth Shop Limits?

Postby Driven » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:32 pm

There's another one--live by the sword, die by the sword. If you're willing to use words to make accusations, then you better be willing to stand up to the defense. My intent is not to humiliate or demean, so if I came across that way, my apologies. But the fact is, you accuse me (which you almost make a sport of it) constantly, and so yes, I'm going to defend myself.
Driven
Double 40 Poster
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline


Return to General Chat (Registered)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests