I Miss Clerics.

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I Miss Clerics.

Postby Truck » Sun May 17, 2020 7:19 pm

As a once (at least I thought) respected tank, I miss clerics- they kept me alive.
The mud has been blessed with good clerics since I've been back: Padme, Norks, Roselarya, Tau, Zuzu.
Zuzu plays, Norks plays more like a mage, Roselarya now plays a warrior, Tau and Padme went M.I.A.

I think the issue is being so useful in groups as healers they get pigeon-holed into only healing.
It seems there are very real concerns about max level cleric abilities and while doing things like buffing Pit-Fiend would be helpful. I tend to think we need something to help clerics through all stages of the game.

IMHO this is where a cleric prime spell would come in handy.
Please consider adding "Harm" to the game and have it be affected by heal bonus for clerics only.
This would allow them to blast when not "IN" and give a viable blasting option instead of swapping all heal bonus eq for spell bonus permanently. I feel that this would scale well as lower level clerics will be able to start gathering heal bonus eq and hopefully interest people into actually playing a cleric.

Thanks for reading...
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby Hung » Mon May 18, 2020 12:38 pm

Nothing prevents a cleric from getting mage levels(as well as gear) and blast while not "IN".

Though generally I agree that cleric class need some improvements. The major issue is supplications. I think they were introduced even before new classes and as of today most of it became either very rarely used or completely useless. Like who needs a thunderbird in 2020, with so many new ways of travelling between continents?
Probably only really useful supps are early fighter ones(like djinn), peri and eudaemon. Also valkyrie is quite useful in groups too. Though it might need a few fixes for that.
Anyway I think it would be cool if supplications would be completely rehauled. Make supplications useful again!
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby crumbs » Tue May 19, 2020 6:41 am

I'm personally kinda annoyed by the artificial limitations imposed on aerial servant. Why can't I use it with deathgrip or backstab or shapeshift ? Makes alot of solo playstyles unviable. Why not add firewind to the list as well ? Made no sense to me, especially while druids never had any problems with shield of thorns compatibility with all of the above skills. So if you want to give clerics a quick boost, i do suggest adressing this issue, would take around a second to make this class much more enjoyable.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby *Idjit* » Tue May 19, 2020 5:24 pm

Q: does harm correspond straight across to heal (level 25)
such that we need greater harm at 30th
and...name it something..at 35th to be analogous to restoration.
and the whole menagerie of cause spells (cause light wounds etc)
Easy enough to do as to the mechanics. rather lengthy if we do All of them.
and then these lower cause spells don't have the HB damage at the same ratio maybe.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby Driven » Wed May 20, 2020 12:26 pm

crumbs wrote:I'm personally kinda annoyed by the artificial limitations imposed on aerial servant. Why can't I use it with deathgrip or backstab or shapeshift ? Makes alot of solo playstyles unviable. Why not add firewind to the list as well ? Made no sense to me, especially while druids never had any problems with shield of thorns compatibility with all of the above skills. So if you want to give clerics a quick boost, i do suggest adressing this issue, would take around a second to make this class much more enjoyable.


My only experience with aerial servant is against mobs who have it, and it would appear that aerial servant completely blocks all damage, making the cleric literally immune to melee damage while the aerial servant is alive. Druid thorns is a damage reduction, not immunity. I would think that for the cooldown on aerial servant to be removed, the aerial servant's protection would need to be %-based to make it similar to druid thorns. As in, if you backstab or grip, then the aerial servant would only stand in front of blows some % of time, such as 33%.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby Driven » Wed May 20, 2020 4:41 pm

*Idjit* wrote:Q: does harm correspond straight across to heal (level 25)
such that we need greater harm at 30th
and...name it something..at 35th to be analogous to restoration.
and the whole menagerie of cause spells (cause light wounds etc)
Easy enough to do as to the mechanics. rather lengthy if we do All of them.
and then these lower cause spells don't have the HB damage at the same ratio maybe.
--D


There's so many different directions you can go with this. Many games have gone the route of Shadow Priest, where cleric's healing spells do damage instead of healing. This gives you the full menagerie of spells for free, plus scaling with heal bonus once you get to heal, greater heal, and restoration. For Sloth, I would think that a Shadow Priest's healing spells would cost 50% of their healing cost... i.e. heal at 42 mana would cost 21 mana when used offensively by a Shadow Priest, greater heal at 55 mana would cost 27 mana, and restoration would cost 31 mana.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby crumbs » Thu May 21, 2020 5:18 am

Driven wrote:My only experience with aerial servant is against mobs who have it, and it would appear that aerial servant completely blocks all damage, making the cleric literally immune to melee damage while the aerial servant is alive. Druid thorns is a damage reduction, not immunity. I would think that for the cooldown on aerial servant to be removed, the aerial servant's protection would need to be %-based to make it similar to druid thorns. As in, if you backstab or grip, then the aerial servant would only stand in front of blows some % of time, such as 33%.


While I still don't understand why we have these kind of limitations, especially on a not particularly overpowering mechanic for a pretty underpowered prime class, your suggestion is better than how it works currently, so I would welcome it.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby *Idjit* » Thu May 21, 2020 9:39 pm

Meh, I like my servant totally blocking.
Careful what you wish for.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby *Idjit* » Thu May 21, 2020 9:42 pm

-on- the other hand. If we were...
To have aerial servant totally block still, as long as you Didn't use Harm in X amount of time.
But if you use Harm and your servant nerfs down to a % protection, then...
You can still have % protection version aerial servant and be able to backstab and the other restricted things too....
And then you go back to totally being able to block with servant
IF
1) the cooldown time limit is reached again since you last used harm OR backstab OR grip
AND
2) you get above +3 align for a moment, just briefly.

Just floating ideas.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby *Idjit* » Thu May 21, 2020 9:45 pm

Color code them
"Zuzu is protected by a red aerial servant" (standard blocks-all, good align, hasnt used offense)
"Zuzu is protected by a purple aerial servant" (% damage mode, evil align, usin stab grip harm)
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby crumbs » Fri May 22, 2020 6:56 am

Aye Idjit, agreed.

Would be nice to finally have my most important prime skill at least not be totally useless when used in combination with important skills of my other complimentary classes, like shapeshifting, backstabbing, gripping etc.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby Truck » Fri May 22, 2020 1:46 pm

I think Ariel servant usage with grip/backstab should be a different discussion.

What I was proposing was a cleric spell that utilized heal bonus for damage in a way that everyone else uses spellbonus on firewind/frostbolt. Harm being same level as Heal would give those mid range clerics something to blast with and would scale nicely with the healbonus eq being available to the class. I don't know if greater heal and restoration equals to harm would be too much or not, which is why I only suggested Harm and not Greater Harm and Power Word Kill. I'm looking for ways to make the cleric class more appealing to not only existing players, but also new players.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby *Idjit* » Sat May 23, 2020 10:15 pm

Should i say it: does anyone stay mid range very long anymore.
I mean that isn't unjustly not being talked to and not brought into the groups.
These days a newb that would stay that level that long, is a newb that fell through the cracks?
But that's another thing outside the scope of what Truck is saying.
What he's saying is valid, and easily enough done. bring harm as a spell (by itself) into the game coeval with heal's magnitude, and scaled with healbonus. With no other action.
I concur with that.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby *Idjit* » Sat May 23, 2020 11:15 pm

Here's a what-if-angels-sat-on-pinheads question:
What happens when Harm hits a damaged-by-heals mob.
I mean the existing damaged-by-heals vulnerability that we already have.
Same as if heal hits it?
Some would say 'well what peri is it, it's healing peristratum because healbonus mods it'
But i want to hear all viewpoints.
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Re: I Miss Clerics.

Postby Truck » Sun May 24, 2020 1:53 pm

I don't have access to the code, but being it is a different spell, it should be un-affected.
Damaged by heals should be the same as vuln to fire- Firewind and Frostbolt both being channeling, but mobs are vuln to diff types. Damaged by heals will still be damaged by heals, but harm (imho) should not have any modifiers based on the damaged by heals modifier. On such mobs a person would have to test to see which is better for them to do for damage against the mob- heal, firewind, frostbolt, harm, disint.
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