Rebirth Shop Info

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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Driven » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:43 pm

The mage gauntlets are the most insane increase ever.


Help me understand this, Gorka, because that was not my intent. My intent was to add something fun, cool, and exciting, providing an pretty sweet *Huzzah* moment, not something that seriously hypes power in some massive, huge way. So, for example, I believe it takes about 20 blasts to earn an unleash on the largest epic in the game. How that plays out in real mage life is that they occasionally get this huge blast that is sweet, but their average xp run stays about the same. So on paper their damage output went up by some large amount, but it wasn't amortized across all the mobs that it took to get there, so their average pain level against typical mobs is the same. On the one mob they unleash against, it's sweet, but that's not the average case. Typical xp runs for a mage will still involve approximately the same number of heals, the same number of blasts... what am I missing?

I think the point I'm trying to make is that power increases should be measured by xp/hour, not raw total damage #'s. Take the extreme example... I give you an item that requires 50 blasts to do 500k damage... your total damage output went up by some absurd amount, but your xp run didn't really change that much other than 1 easier mob.

It would appear that warriors have a different perspective on damage than monks, thieves, mages, and clerics do. You say +10 damage doesn't matter that much in solo... eh? A monk with +10 damage does 150 more on his deathtouch, which means all of those mobs that deathtouched to 15% now die. Whether or not the mob dies on a deathtouch matters a huge amount, because even 1 round of fighting against a 5mil mob does 300+ damage, which is 62 mana of heals. So if the mob suddenly dies now, your runs extend a huuuuuuge amount. Mages and clerics have the exact same issue. If their blast goes up by 50 effective spell bonus (between saves and spell bonus), then that means that many more mobs die to the blasts without ever entering battle. That's a huge bump in xp/hour even though their damage only crept up by a small margin.

So when you look at the increases in the rebirth shop vs. something like the mage gauntlets, I would say for most players, the mage gauntlets don't even move the needle on the power scale, whereas the rebirth shop is freaking amazing. The extension of their solo runs and xp/hour goes up a lot more due to the shop than the gauntlets or the Sphairai.

And yes, groups will see an increase in power as well.
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Gorka » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:17 pm

I agree not everyone measures the importance of damage by how much more xp they can run in a time frame. In my opinion, this is how it should be viewed - because this is the objective of damage.

Here's a run stat from shadow keep today... using some measures on my msdp.STATUS.

"REPORT Run Time: 456 Run XP: 119646511 XP Rate: 944577718.42105"
"REPORT Time Resting: 44 Time Standing: 248 Time Fighting: 146 Time Sleeping: 0"

You'll notice that I spend 54% of the time not even fighting. This is game play that's not affected by my power or rebirth shop, that I can't currently do anything about... it's resting to gain hp's, it's running room to room, it's casting spells. Generally no matter what you do in this game, half the time of an xp run is spent not fighting. This is the point I made.

Now lets break down prime power gain from rebirth shop... Bare in mind I just had to buy my damage back that I lost from my warcry...

Monk +6 per attack, 6 * 5 for strike, 6 * 10 for grip.
Warrior +6 per attack. (Plus small amount for massive/crits - not much to broadside if it even works)
Mage, 30 dam per spell, 3 saves * (5 dam roughly) = +45 per spell.

There is a perception out there that warriors are powerful, but that's actually not true in a damage sense. Mages and monks do more damage. Warriors have skills that are allow it to attack without taking damage. That's what makes a warrior powerful... but warriors probably come in 3rd or 4th in this game in regards to damage.

My simple observation is that unless I kill a mob, a round quicker than I did before... my xp over time will not increase... and to kill a mob quicker in one round I need substantially more power than +6 dam. This is why even with rebirth shop, even though I am more powerful (and I've neglected to point out the OP of my procs) it's probably not enough power to make me kill a mob 1 round quicker, and therefore get more xp over the same time. However with group the extra power is all added up among all the players... so the effect of rebirth shop is going to reflect strongly on groups and less on solo.

Rebirth shop is fantastic, it's earned advantages... but it's conservative. 5000hp procs and 300 disint's 1/6 is completely OP. I'm not the only older player who thinks so. I'm not even really against it... but it's the truth, and we should recognise it. There were some legit reasons mages have recently been bolstered, but essentially a lot of their propaganda and victim hood and shifting to warriors as perpetrators was untruths and lies. And when I lose 3 dam, and mages get 5000k dam procs, a decent person could understand my confusion.
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Gorka » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:20 pm

The maths behind my claim that rebirth shop probably won't increase solo xp runs is this...

In order to get more exp in a given time frame, a player must kill a mob at least 1 round sooner than he did previously.

If my damage per round is 5 x 100 melee attacks (500), and a mob has 2500hp, I will kill it in 5 rounds.
To get xp faster I must kill the mob in 4 rounds, meaning I would need to do 625 damage in 4 rounds to get xp faster.

So basically in this case, for rebirth shop to cause players to get more xp solo, I would need 125 extra damage per round, or techincally, about +20/25 weapon damage. Rebirth shop gives +6.

However this equation doesn't work for groups... because groups will add up all the players extra damage and mobs will die faster. Grouping will be the first change we will notice and it's already the case in the game.
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Ker » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:19 am

Hi,

There are plenty ways to drop a mob faster however it almost appears the fixated approach drew multiple conclusions on how the Reborn Shop would not benefit since "exp received in a time frame" won't improve unless the maths works out.

So the point I'm getting here is this - let's change the Reborn shop and not the approach?

Why are we even comparing Warrior's damage output to a monk or mage?

As for the mage artifact and as a mage prime, I do not find any practical use for it. In my case, raw energy is the way to go. But that doesn't mean I can't have fun with the item or I find it "useless" or "conservative". It has it's place and it sure is hella fun. Mage and Suna are approaching lvl 7-8 on the mage artifact and it really shines in small epic groups. And perhaps the occasional grab after multiple solo/group runs.

I can clear the whole of lyme with Dr and he doesn't even output half the damage Mage does. Is damage really the question here? :lol:

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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby cyprimus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:36 am

I agree with dr. Mages are useless! and evil!

Mage primes should be removed from the game, and the mage cup, should be renamed the pew Pew PEW!!! cup.

My main issue is still the same, your adding bonus bonus... but not base abilities... I cannot get the 110 heal bonus i need too max... so.. now i can... get more bonus heal bonus..

It seems the code for bonus bonus stuff got changed, to be broken like the code for max stats. Stats no longer limited by classo... and you don't need heal bonus to use the bonus heal bonus anymore...? Can we get a list of updates/rewrites cause thats a major change in itself.
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Vegetable » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:25 am

Can't speak for other classes/playstyle but i think 6 hand dam + 3 dam from rebirth shop will definitely make me run much faster. I'm already seeing the difference in my runs with the hand dam clasp from EU. i'd imagine with an extra 9 dam, i'll be splorking more stuff with grip.

If i'm lucky, i could clear most grip area in lyme without regen. Extra dam will make it even easier and faster. But then are you willing to run for hours without regen everyday? i'd rather take it slow and enjoy myself :lol: but thats just me.

On the gauntlets. i actually enjoy seeing mages getting excited when it proc.. Haven't seen mages so happy for awhile. Mage is a pure DPS class. I think they should always have higher damage output compared to... say warrior :shock: I still think they need some sort of buff to help them sustain their mana in group.... Its boring to see mage running out of mana and end up chopping in group but thats another topic.

Cheers,
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Gorka » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:29 am

I forged the staff of the reborn today. It turned out to be a lot of work for a number of reasons. I had to figure out what the mobs were for the regular loading cp's, the random proc loading cp's were broken and wouldn't load, and then there was an issue with one of the cp's being temp. All issues have seemingly been rectified. Most of the cp's are identified on the eqlist. Those that aren't you'll have to work out yourself, or you can pay me a princely sum for being a lazy ass as my spares are currently on auction. Regarding the reborn particle cp, you'll need to visit the rebirth shop first using the other method of access of which the notes and information are well documented in this thread. I shant be saying more.

I'd like to offer a sincere thank you to the immortal staff for making the rebirth shop happen. I am a warrior without much intelligence, and a puzzle entry for me was the worst possible entry. I don't mind hard work and cycling, but I hate it when puzzles stop me going forward. However as it turned out, the notes provided all the information that was needed, and the story line was really enjoyable and the entry method and idea well thought out. Yes, there were some implementation issues, but no ones perfect. A special thanks to those who did actually help me Waza, Driven and Suna.

1x a bundle of uncut rubies - FIRE PLANE
1x an ancient clay tablet - EARTH PLANE
1x a clutch of salmon roe - WATER PLANE
1x a balloon - AIR PLANE
1x an orb of positive energy - POSITIVE PLANE
1x a mirror of shadows - NEG PLANE
1x a vial of aether - ETHER PLANE
1x a pair of devil's horns - CAINA
1x a tome of evil scriptures - GEHENNA
1x a cube of elemental salt - SALT PLANE
1x a smoldering eyestalk - MAGMA PLANE
1x a cloud of floating embers - LIGHTNING PLANE
1x a jagged sliver of bone - PLANE OF ICE
1x a flask of elemental flame - FIRE EXT
1x a clockwork puzzle box - PLANAR NEXUS
1x a tiny vortex - EU - RANDOM
1x a single drop of water - EU - RANDOM
1x an oblong pebble - EU - RANDOM
1x a puff of smoke - EU - RANDOM
1x a reborn particle - WHERE MIGHT IT BE? ;)

The Cyclopean Foundry
A blazing furnace of green and blue fire mixing with bright yellow and
orange flames roars against the south wall, within which belches a rolling
smoke through a hole in the cavern ceiling. Flickering orange light dances
upon the roughly hewn walls of red stone, and a gigantic anvil stands in
the center of the area. Several items of metal including swords and armor
have been piled to either side. The floor of the foundry is a mix of bits
of charcoal and red sand, each which has covered every article with a fine
layer of each. The heat permeates the air, giving it a pressurized feel as
steam hangs in the air above a huge cauldron of water.
Exits: North
A huge, four-armed cyclops pounds away at his anvil.

forge staff
Pheremos, the Nexian Smith takes your components and begins forging them together.

A few moments later...

receive staff
Pheremos, the Nexian Smith tells you 'Now don't tell that witch that I made you that! She'll kill us
both!'
Pheremos, the Nexian Smith also gives you a page of instructions for the staff of the reborn.

You feel informed:
Object 'staff reborn *Gorka*', Item type: STAFF
Item is: GLOW HUM PERSONAL MAGIC RESTRUNG CAN-SHAPESHIFT FLOAT
Weight: 2, Value: 1000000gold, Worn in: TAKE HOLD
Has 0 charges, with 0 charges left.
Level 40 spell of:
(none)
The item has 1 additional magical ability.
Only those who are at least supreme avatars, and have been reborn may use
this item.

l page
There is something written upon it:

The staff of the reborn can be used at The Great Monolith to return
to Genesis.

A few moments later...

The Great Monolith
A wide area with rubble rounding the edges of a flat, red sand is
dominated by a huge black, shining monolith of what appears to be onyx. As
the alien moons revolve around the sky, the shadow of the great structure
swivels like the shadow of a great sun dial. The sky is forever dark,
spotted by thousands of tiny points of light varying in hue from white to
dark purple, each twinkling with their own regularity like the facets of a
wondrous gem. Footprints of all types mark the soft, dry sand, and lead
into all directions, as they disappear into the alien landscape.
Exits: North East South West Up Down
A gnarly, blood-stained blade whispers death here...It glows red!..It has a soft glowing aura!
A bejeweled book of conflagration lies forgotten on the ground...It emits a faint humming sound!
A great black monolith eclipses the sky, casting a shadow upon the ground.

hold reborn
You grab the staff of the reborn.

use staff
You emphatically raise the staff of the reborn into the air.
Your body is turned into a pile of salt which is absorved by a nearby puddle.
You suddenly find yourself elsewhere.
Edge of Nothingness
The arms of gas and dust begin to dissispate as the entire mass swirls
about its center, and otherwise lead back to the east. Points of light
blink within the dust and gas, against nad otherwise immense and
overwhelming darkness. Small particles race about in all directions like
tiny insects made entirely of pure energy.
Exits: East
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Ker » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:58 am

Wunderbar!

Great initiative G, well done!

R,
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby *teker* » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:44 pm

Let it be known that at some point in the not too distant future, I intend to change the process of rebirthing (ie the rebirth command) so that it can only take place at the rebirth shopkeeper. I don't have an exact date but if you're on the fence or thinking about rebirthing, you might want to get moving on that.
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Gorka » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:37 am

Is the ability to rebirth more than once going to be enabled, given the renewable drachma issue?
And if so would the player also be able to achieve another 3 3x40 tokens?

I've just worked out what I would buy with 3000+ more drachma and 3 more 3x40 tokens, and the truth is the benefit of these things is fairly negligible, when you consider the real benefits were already purchased in the first play through and rebirth. In the light of proc weapons, and mage gauntlets the benefits of these things would be but a footnote - far less than rebirth or avatar shop even, but still progression.
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Re: Rebirth Shop Info

Postby Vegetable » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:36 pm

Multiple reborn sounds fun. I was told last time that there may be a stacking remort/reborn bonus (up to 3 times) for multiple reborn. Is this in the pipeline?

:lol:
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