Chopper issues

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Chopper issues

Postby Ezekiel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:47 am

Wasn't gonna say anything, but since it was brought forward in another thread...
We had a crash yesterday, right as EU chop day started and 8 hours or so of scimitar harvesting went down the drain.

I love that chars get penalized for mud instability. What's the point of even having bonus chop EU days if you can't depend on/set up for them? I ended up renting for the rest of the day.

After the crash, Splork tried to give me 5 'specs' to start and said 8 more were loaded. 'Specs,' none of which were blinding choppers. I appreciated the sentiment, but I made it clear that i had spent 1/3 of a day cycling 15 or so scimis, not non-blinding specs. The rate at which blinding choppers pop has been severely lowered so it takes a GREAT deal of effort to prep adequate blinding choppers for something like EU chop day (hence, the 1/3 day of prep). You have to stockpile so much because they break so often. EU is especially thick, which is why chop day is enabled on the bonus days. Mud numbers are lower than they used to be, so even with non-blinding specs, you can't simply rely on mana like you used to with such suppressed numbers, it eats a TON of mana with the damage those mobs do. We would be hitting 1 maybe 2 mobs per regen with regular, non-blinding specs...not to mention that throws away the 8 hours of effort that I just spent prepping for a certain bonus day to get adequate blinding specs for everyone. Note: I need no eq in EU (woeful lack of useable mage eq there) and in fact helped discover some of the eq there. I do know a ton of players that need eq there though both in and outside of my clan, and so I cycle these scimitars for long periods of time at no personal gain to myself before EU days (since EU is really an eq area), so others can benefit. There aren't many leaders who know the cont well enough to run it, and I want the mud to get their wanted eq on the trifle days we're allowed choppers there.


I didn't feel like cycling one to two mobs per regen with the non-blinding specs, so I ended up just renting. We didn't get to cycle EU because all the preparation that was put into place preceding the day had been thrown away. If we had run with the non-blinding specs, cycling one to two mobs per regen in EU doesn't promote peeps staying in group, nor does the dismissive attitude in which restoring at least some blinding specs could have salvaged, which are essential to maintaining a group in EU (short of having a massive 20 char avatar-heavy group like the old days).

It is my personal belief that if a new continent is to be explored, and a leader spends 8 hours in preparation to have others explore such continent, they should not be shrugged off when the mud becomes unstable.

Just my two cents,
Ezekiel

P.S. Taron also made some excellent points on general chopper use on telegram that I hope he also posts here.
Last edited by Ezekiel on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Gorka » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:05 am

As good and as well written as Ezekiel's post is explaining the problem... perhaps the way forward though is to focus on solutions or compromises?

What if the pop rate on choppers was dramatically increased to something like 80%? Is this a workable compromise?
Is it possible to put a fixed number of non-renewing items in a store on reboot? Is this a workable compromise?

If not, then what are solutions?

Reimbursements of specs for scims after a crash is just infuriating, may as well "drop spiritual hammers." If an imm can go to the trouble of making specs, it is no more to do scims... this just speaks to the "player harmony" point I made in the reimbursement thread. If a player has something and they loose it, and reimbursement is decided upon it should come back to them as before. Who gives a man water, when he says he's hungry and then argues his virtue?
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby *Splork* » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 am

I hardly feel that offering up 5 specs is a slap in the face and speaks to player harmony. In no way, shape, or form do we give any reimbursements for the loss of temporary items on crashes or reboots unless we are feeling generous. I understand the frustration, we have ALL been there before.

Honestly, that is just ridiculous and those comments absolutely piss me off.

I see an issue with the blinding choppers more than I see with game play which has been exactly the same for a quarter of a century.

I won't be posting again, I have made my feelings on the matter crystal clear.

Enjoy,
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Teron » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:29 am

First of all, let's detach the chopper issue from the EU continent, I believe they are separate. If an imm thinks otherwise, please correct me.

Secondly, as Gorka said, let's try to find a solution that'd help the leaders, who pop specs, the players and to keep it balanced enough that imms won't scream "NEEERF!" at the suggestions (too late, I guess!)

Here's how choppers work right now:
- chopping with non-blinding specs requires a 8-10+ group, which doesn't happen often, and it does not provide exp, comparable to offlyme

- chopping with blinding specs allows a leader to start a group with 5-6 players to get average exp, which is still lower, than offlyme

- only 8+ chop groups with blinding specs allow us to get exp, comparable to good exp/hr offlyme

- one of the 3 leaders we have needs to spend half a day to pop 10+ specs to start the group, because scimitar poprates have been recently reduced at least by half

- they poof on crash or his clannies don't save them on reboot: of the last batches of choppers I popped, crashes poofed 4, and I used 1 in a group

- a group of 8-10+ needs to *constantly* be hitting *all* mobs for blinding specs to recoup the ones they break, which is why the leader needs to cycle specs in advance to have enough specs

- hitting those mobs repeatedly lowers the exp/hr significantly to the low or average exp/hr of a 6 person group offlyme, which is why the leader needs to pop a double amount in advance to keep the exp/hr up

About chop groups in general:

- the only reason Ezekiel is leading chop groups is that he doesn't have to micromanage, like I do offlyme, to squeeze more exp/hr out of the group

- for me doing any areas repeatedly is boring, it is not related to chop or offlyme

- one of the reasons I do offlyme is if I don't have specs in my vault. Their absence cuts off 50% of the exp areas in game for my groups.

- players use script assistance regardless of chop or offlyme, it's just offlyme being afk can cause problems. Making us to police active participation would cut group numbers at least by 30-50% easily. i try to micromanage this, and I can tell you that people don't like being herded

- people, who have bad scripts, waste mana in groups (or not spend it, when needed) and are astonishingly annoying to the point of almost kicking them out or stopping leading. In chop groups, they are just like everybody else and the spice flows as usual

So, with that in mind, let's identify a problem: the leaders have to pop tons of specs in advance to keep leading.

Solutions:
1. make everyone else cycle specs
Doesn't work, because people are lazy, specs will poof and will be broken again very quickly

2. decrease break rate
A good start, but won't solve this problem single-handedly - the problem is in getting and saving specs in vaults

3. restore scimitar poprate
An ok solution that is easiest to do (doesn't require coding) and would ease our suffering by 50%. Well played it'll be.

4. Do both 2. and 3.
An excellent solution, easy to do, but doesn't remove the hurdle of having to pop specs again before groups (even at old poprate it took 2-3 repops/hours in Poseidon to pop them)

5. Save specs in vaults through crashes/reboots
Only removes the hurdle of popping specs to start groups. Players and groups would still need to pop specs at low poprate or low exp/hr to keep going.

6. 2., 3. and 5.
The panacea.
Everyone's happy to have enough specs only to get the same exp/hr as offlyme - and still leaders would need to pop them before/after groups and probably still to do scim runs during exp runs, because choppers break and in large groups they break very often.

So, if magic happens, and choppers persist through Splork's wishes and crashes, then:
- leaders will still be cycling choppers
- groups will still need to do chopper runs, while doing exp, because specs break
- it'll only relieve the leaders from the utter despair of returning to an empty vault after having spent 4-8 hours cycling for specs
- if players somehow pop tons of specs, then the leader won't have to do it, the group will break them again, thus restoring the equilibrium
- the 8+ groups will finally be able to get exp, comparable to exp offlyme (i think chop exp drops off after 15 players, could be wrong, tho)

To me saving specs through crashes doesn't seem to be that awesome a solution Splork seems to be taking it for. 6 is a much more potent solution for groups and even then it would allow us to add 8 areas to 11 to have the exact same exp/hr as offlyme, under ideal conditions (ie having enough people to do the same exp offlyme).

Immorts are free to offer solutions to the issue that lead to great exhaustion, exasperation and despair.

To say that you've been there, Splork, would mean that you played, when specs popped as infrequently as they do now, that you've popped tons of specs, led tons of chop groups and lost tons of choppers in the process. But I don't remember this. Was it in S3? Who denied to restore specs to you then or gave you knives instead of Specularems?


As for the "harmony", here's the way I see it:

- players play a game and expect to reap the fruits of their actions: exp, gold, eq, you name it
- popping specs, as temporary as they are, is eq, as long as it remains on Lyme or in temp areas
- losing specs due to game errors (crashes) means players lose the fruits of their actions without doing anything to cause that (ie, they don't jump on a boat or enter a portal to BH)
- a good game would strive to remove such occasions and try to restore the fruits of players' actions in no matter what they are.

If Eze had been cycling for 50 bloody lollypops and lost them only due to a crash/bug, he has a cause for reimbursement for 50 bloody lollypops, not 30 lutefisk. Restoring 25 lollypops also doesn't make sense, because the lost stuff needs to be restored completely in order to restore the fairness of the game and Eze's peace of mind.

I know it takes 45 minutes to restore those bloody lollipops, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be restored: it means the process needs to be easier or their loss should not happen.

Now, when it comes to choppers and reboots, I had already suggested weekly reboots on Wednesdays, so players would know a reboot is coming a week in advance, without having to check "time started", and save specs (or not pop them altogether). To this Splork replied that he needed to reboot whenever he wants, so nothing came of the suggestion. By the looks of it, it'd have relieved at least some of the pressure we are facing to keep popping specs in vain.

For some reason Splork seems to think that chop is awesome. I think he's wrong, so it'd help if an imm ran some analytics and math to prove him right and me wrong:
- check how much exp/hr groups used to make before the poprate on scims was reduced
- same after the poprate
- compare exp/hr of chop groups to offlyme groups by numbers (5 to 5 person group, 8, 10, 13, 15 person groups)
- compare group exp/month for lyme and offlyme in the last 12 months, comparing before and after spec dam change, and scim poprate change
- exclude epics from the calculation and possibly days, when epics were splorked

Of course, I can create a webform for players to submit their counters stats into from 8+man grouping, but it'd be self-reported and imms have much more data anyway.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Driven » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 pm

At the master warrior, place a weapons rack where up to 8 temp weapons can be stored for 100k gold and withdrawn for another 100k gold with a register that shows who puts stuff in and takes stuff out of the rack. Players will self-regulate the use of the weapons rack (immortals have no involvement with the rack whatsoever, once the rack is operational). That's another option.

While I do understand the frustration this game provides, I'm going to play devil's advocate to some degree, because I have been on both sides. As Taron pointed out, running a chop group is easier than offlyme, which is why it *should* be dramatically harder to setup the group and it *should* be more difficult to match offlyme xp. Mud crashes are a reality of the development of new content. You want new, fun stuff? You have to deal with mud crashes. Try to understand it from the perspective of someone who is spending hours tweaking MUDL to very little advantage of their own. Does that mean we should not strive to reduce crashes? No. Does it mean that players have no "skin the game" with regards to new content causing those crashes? No, I don't think that's true either. The reality is somewhere in between. We all share in the responsibility of the mud crashes when we ask for new features and celebrate the addition of new content.

Of course there is the appeal to "fairness" and "harmony", but where is the fairness and harmony in Breeze having to spend 45 minutes restoring someone's equipment? Who reimburses him those 45 minutes? Where is the fairness when I had to spend months writing room descriptions (a process that sucks beyond measure) so that the mud can enjoy the Necropolis? Who reimburses those two months of my life? The reality is that this mud requires time. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's awesome. We play for the awesome times. Do we code around all the sucky times? Some of them, yes, all of them, absolutely not. You pick up your corpse and you move on.

It's easy to get caught in the microcosm of your own efforts and feel like you are on your own little island of effort where mud life is a simple equation of time + effort = results, where if you do the first two and don't get the latter you are somehow cheated. The reality is more complex than that. Splork's responsibility is to properly balance the game. It would appear from an outsider's point of view that he feels (rightly so in my opinion), that making chopping too easy would ruin that balance while simultaneously making the average player lazier and dumber, and at the end of the day rob the players of the enjoyment of truly learning how to play and truly enjoying the other continents, which are extremely rich and rewarding. If I gave my kids the option of eating cookies or a well-balanced meal every day, they would choose cookies and it would end up biting them in the ass. Obviously the entire issue of choppers is the means by which chopping is balanced and crashes play into that balance.

Does that mean Ezekiel is not justified in feeling burned when the crash takes away 8 hours of his work? Absolutely not... he is justified. But should the admin jump up and down to fix this? Ehhhh, the reality is somewhere in between.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Gorka » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:58 pm

Driven made some pretty disingenuous remarks in his post, that annoyed the hell outta me. I've already talked to him about them in private, because we get along fine, but wasn't prepared to let the erroneous statements slide publicly.

>Running a chop group is easier than offlyme, which is why it *should* be dramatically harder to setup.
How much harder... 8hrs and loose everything you've got harder? Constantly having to run choppers harder? People can't physically get there own chopper harder because guards wipe them out harder? You never quantified your statement... that quantity is actually whats under debate. How much harder does it need to be... that's the very notion that's under debate here... is it even worth it! Chop Leader consensus is no. Then the question is, why do we even have chop areas. All that content whats it for if it's not appreciated.

>You want new, fun stuff? You have to deal with mud crashes.
Yes! Any imm can crash the mud as much as they like in my opinion... thank you for improving the mud... However things need to be restored to how they were before the crash though. Am I being unreasonable? People can loose hours of there progress every day/week/month/year.

>Splork's responsibility is to properly balance the game.
You like to talk up your "contributer" status to the game don't you, not the first time... I guess Splork missed Necrop then... 10m xp 2 firewinds... where else in the game do I do that? I guess he missed Sub Palace then... one currently crappy forge that no one wants, and an area that's no longer frequently run... Azzenon 1.1m coins... 20m coins in 7h on fast repop where else in the game do I do that? Balanced, what? where? sloth? :shock:

>making the average player lazier and dumber
If you haven't noticed, we are trying to make do with what we've got at the moment. There isn't a hell of a bright future for text based games. It's not like the old days. Dumb and Lazy is just a fact of life we are having to deal with, the alternative being no grouping at all.

>Does that mean Ezekiel is not justified in feeling burned when the crash takes away 8 hours of his work?
It's not just 8hrs, that's the point, it's day in, day out, month in, month out, year in, year out. All he wants is the right to have something he had, he already earned... does that seem unreasonable?

I can see what you tried to do Driven, try and come in as some middle man, but really... disingenuous. As I told you in tells, I can only hope your next area is chop area. :lol: Looking forward to you leading some groups...

To Ezekiel I say, we can only change what we can change. It's not your responsibility to run chop, or equip other players... appreciate that you do that... but maybe it's time to give it up.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby *teker* » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:09 pm

I don't believe that the game stores experience statistics in the way suggested here. I think each player basically has a weekly counter that gets incremented each time experience is awarded. We can't break it out to measure group or solo performance during a smaller period of time. The in-game counters that players can reset on smaller intervals are not saved by the game in any fashion.

I specifically withhold new code in the week or so before the monthly global chop day to allow for as much player preparation as possible for that day. Now that there multiple days per month for off-Lyme chop that becomes more difficult. I understand that it's not just collecting the choppers but it is also allowing time for the astrological houses to pop the various epic mobiles that require them. The last crash was "call of the sidhe" crashing due to the "call of the cuillen" changes I made to try to protect players from their own scripts. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose.

I want to make it clear that the game does not treat choppers differently than other items during reboots or crashes. It does treat choppers differently by not allowing them in vaults, at the auction house, post office, etc. The topic of preserving items through crashes/reboots has been discussed in limited fashion. IF we were to code something that attempts to preserve items and mobs in the game through reboots and crashes, we would certainly need to develop a new algorithm for expiring items scattered around the world, in shops, etc. And then what stops the complaints about that algorithm, or the next one, or the one after that? I'm not saying that I don't want to put in some kind of helpful solution but I don't see an end.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Gorka » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:45 pm

I don't think anyone is upset with you fixing the mud Teker. Please don't take it that way, it's simply not true.

Whomever dumped 5 specs at Zhanna when a group was running EU with blinding choppers had a serious lapse of judgement. I don't know who it was but the fact this thread has appeared out of that is completely justifiable. I wasn't part of that group, but I am just as much completely outraged and I was logged at the time, what a slap in the face. This was not a Breeze having to spend 45mins on a restore situation, It was no extra work to give them back what they had.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Driven » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:02 pm

As I hope most of you know by now, I hold no ill will towards anyone and attempt to be respectful to all. Gorka, you, Taron, and Ezekiel deserve a lot of respect for leading groups. A lot of us simply cannot lead groups because it requires that you have dedicated time in front of an actual keyboard (not phone) and few outside distractions. I have a 6-year old and twin 4-year olds, and my time is either mostly afk in meetings at work on the phone... or .... mostly afk at home on my phone... lol. I consider it a treat when I get time to myself and have an actual keyboard to play on.

I would have preferred you used a different word than disingenuous, as it implies I'm trying to hide something or obscure something. I'm not. I honestly believe the balance between chop and offlyme is an important issue that has mostly been solved through the regulation of choppers. When I played S3 we had an insane number of chop groups compared to offlyme and it was a serious problem that needed to be solved. And it was solved. A lot of people who have played for more than a decade understand that and appreciate that chop is still active, yet has its place among many different options. That balance exists because of the difficulty of choppers and the regulation of xp. I think you read into my response that I'm ok if chop disappears... no, I'm not. That would definitely be a significant loss to the game. At the same time I'm excited that we have offlyme xp and am enjoying that tremendously, so I want to keep the two balanced. I feel like I made a legit suggestion that helps fix the problem in a limited fashion that the immortals don't need need to be involved in.

The primary purpose of my response, as you pointed out, is to be the middle man between the two camps. In no way is that disingenuous -- that's an honest attempt to help both sides see both sides of the argument. If you take that differently, that's on you. I do think players need to accept the realities of crashes with more understanding and patience than pointing at the immortals saying "You did something wrong! Fix it!!" As Teker pointed out, the crash happened because he was attempting to rectify a problem that caused you far more heartache than 8 hours of cycling. I hope you got a full reimbursement on that.

As for the balancing of Necropolis, the area was designed before undead visage was a thing and before spell saves were fixed. The crystalline tail was the 2nd item in the game that offered spell bonus and drachma eq was just starting to become a thing. Without undead visage, the area would be a lot more balanced, as it requires an intimate understanding of aggro, scanning constantly, and fast typing with recalls and retreats. And I'm not sure why you brought up Sub Palace... obviously people have no incentive to run the area, which is sad, but that may change in the future. =) Additionally, I tried very hard to prevent Azzenon from being able to be solo'ed (the proc itself is based on how many people are in the room). It was only years later that I learned he could be solo'ed by a select few. I challenge new people to forge the key to Azzenon. ;)

If I have the luxury of actually being at a keyboard, I'll help pop choppers. And no, it's not unreasonable for Ezekiel to ask for a reimbursement. But it's important to understand also that crashes play a role in balancing the game in this specific scenario, currently, but perhaps that's not the right solution.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby *Splork* » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:16 pm

dis·in·gen·u·ous
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
Gorka wrote:Whomever dumped 5 specs at Zhanna when a group was running EU with blinding choppers had a serious lapse of judgement. I don't know who it was but the fact this thread has appeared out of that is completely justifiable.


I have had much greater lapses in judgement, such as last night when I became extremely upset with my son for something which he actually did not do! I have a trillion other instances I could name before this one...

On a serious note...

I never meant to offend anyone. I was in the middle of work, doing something for a player and barely paying attention to gossip. I think I did a pfile restore and tossed out 5 specs not thinking anything about it. Ezekiel made a couple of quick comments about those not being worth anything and I went back to work.

I do feel the players pain on many of these issues. This is one of them. Contrary to a few player's beliefs, my tens of thousands of hours on this game has put me in these very same positions more times than most, even if I have not played for the past 5 years.

I know I said I was not going to post again but I just couldn't resist!

Here is a representation of choppers in-game, less than 48 hours after the incident and this was quite similar yesterday when I looked also:

a razor sharp tiger claw:1228860152 is being used by a lammasu temple militia
who is in Courtyard Entrance [47187].
a razor sharp tiger claw:1228687428 is being used by a temple militia commander
who is in Basilica of the Tiger [47201].
a razor sharp tiger claw:1228687421 is being used by a tigress nymph follower
who is in Sacred Path [47197].
a large curved scimitar:1228190758 is carried by Splork
who is in Splork's Abode [1024].
Specularem:1227724427 is being used by Xerxes, The Corruptor of Worlds
who is in The Lightning Rod [12700].
a large curved scimitar is in The Glowing Sphere [16218]
a large curved scimitar is in The Glowing Sphere [16218]
a large curved scimitar is in The Glowing Sphere [16218]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a razor sharp tiger claw is in Legends Lyme Vault [16258]
a razor sharp tiger claw is in Avenue of Academia [47205]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Glowing Sphere [16218]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Glowing Sphere [16218]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Glowing Sphere [16218]
a razor sharp tiger claw is in Course of Contemplation [47207]
Specularem:1210237246 is carried by Splork who is in Splork's Abode [1024].
Specularem is in Legends Lyme Vault [16258]
Specularem is in Legends Lyme Vault [16258]
Specularem is in Legends Lyme Vault [16258]
Specularem is in Legends Lyme Vault [16258]
Specularem is in Legends Lyme Vault [16258]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
a large curved scimitar is in The Haven of Hearot [16298]
Specularem:1209866287 is being used by Apirana the Master Avatar
who is in Guildhouse of the Avatar [89375].
Specularem:1209866283 is being used by The High Paladin
who is in A Godly Room [89374].
Specularem:1209866245 is being used by Abramelin the Master Mage
who is in Practice Room [89368].
Specularem:1209866321 is being used by the blacksmith
who is in The Forge [89359].
Specularem:1209865771 is being used by the Master Druid
who is in The Circle of Stones [69397].
Macuahuitl:1209865825 is being used by Sailor Bob
who is in Sounds of Xochipilli [69201].
Macuahuitl:1209865751 is being used by Captain Torrid
who is in Secretarial Office [69179].
Macuahuitl:1209865772 is being used by Fjolnin
who is in Neatly Kept Office [69140].
Macuahuitl:1209865770 is being used by the ixtapa matriarch
who is in Axtlaca Riverbanks [69132].
a curved sacrificial knife:1209865566 is being used by a senior monk
who is in Dusty Library [58143].
a curved sacrificial knife:1209865591 is being used by an acolyte
who is in Below the Altar [58147].
a large curved scimitar:1209865637 is being used by the sahaguin high king
who is in The Great Hall of Kings [58076].
Specularem:1209865483 is being used by Grog the bartender
who is in Wooden Bar [49090].
a razor sharp tiger claw:1209865452 is being used by a greater lammasu
who is in Crypt of the Banished One [47186].
a double bladed battle axe:1209865529 is being used by a beast with a huge gaping maw
who is in The Casino [44282].
a double bladed battle axe:1209865521 is being used by a beast with a huge gaping maw
who is in The Center of the Saloon [44267].
blazing sword of the maul titans:1209865456 is being used by a fire maul titan
who is in A Pool of Ash [44143].
blazing sword of the maul titans:1209865525 is being used by Tyroch, Ruler of the Maul Titans
who is in Island Within the Inferno [44142].
blazing sword of the maul titans:1209865520 is being used by a fire maul titan youth
who is in Traversing the Charred Mountain [44113].
Specularem:1209865210 is being used by the Master Monk
who is in Master Surajin's Humble Quarters [33471].
Specularem:1209865163 is being used by Chang the Celestial Teacher
who is in Circular Black Room [33282].
a triblade of shadows:1209864886 is being used by Longshadow
who is in Longshadow's Lair [14142].
a triblade of shadows:1209864843 is being used by Shadowcrusher
who is in Shape-Shifting Shadows [14135].
a triblade of shadows:1209864866 is being used by Thundershadow
who is in Thundershadow's Tomb [14127].
a Sekira:1209864665 is being used by a strong boyarin who is in Duma [6418].
a Sekira:1209864699 is being used by Prince Igor
who is in Prince's Chambers [6415].
a Sekira:1209864730 is being used by a scarlet dragon
who is in Dragon's Guard Post [6267].

Sorry for posting Immortal Information!
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Teron » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:09 am

Driven, writing areas is quite different in running choppers in crash days. You don't lose areas. And if you do, then you can save them on your PC before comitting them to the game.

If people don't run your areas like the Subterranean palace, then it's because it needs to be tweaked - the concept of tweaking areas to optimal performance I mentioned awhile ago, and was told that continuous changes are impossible (with new areas being the exception, I guess?), as if game developers and builders are foreign to the concept of agile development, which never stops.

I had already suggested a weapon rack in vaults, it's size and cost could be different. Right now a vault slot costs 500k. A rack of 10 choppers with 1mil per slot would work for me. But it won't happen, it's the first thing I asked about.

You say that chopping promotes laziness and dumbness, that it needs to be harder to get choppers and it needs to be lower exp. Let me break it for you: it already is, prohibitively so:
- the leader has to spend or waste tens of hours to provide specs for the group, while everyone but him bots. It punishes the leader, not the group

- chop exp is already always below offlyme exp, even at ideal conditions. I said "same" only by neglecting the 5-10% exp difference, offlyme exp in my groups always being larger. With higher gempop rate and nocap, offlyme is already preferable to Lyme. There also are less areas, so more chances to do unaged exp, and the group has to replace broken choppers, for the most part (low unaged exp, again)

Even if all the changes I recommended go in, the leader will still either need to pop specs to keep exp/hr at the level slightly below offlyme, or lead the group to spec runs, thus lowering exp/hr. The handicap is already built in the game mechanics by breaking choppers, it does not have to be excruciatingly painful to the leader.

- players always bot, regardless of lyme or offLyme. It is if I prod them offlyme, exp/hr increases. Chop does not have the active skills besides restore that'd increase exp/hr, except for occasional heals to save the tank. If players could chop with flail or broadside, then I'd prod them to do it, but this ability was removed.

Come to think of it, the chop laziness is the product of its game mechanics.

Splork, claws are 6x40, Specularems are average specs and that they require high str to use, and to get those scimitars, the same few players had to spend half a day getting them. But this isn't the good part.

Teker, the good part is that it'll either crash before the 16th (no offence) or someone will reboot before the 16th, because it'll be 8 days uptime. So poof those specs will go.

To avoid getting backlash for the changes, here's how products are made:
- the requirements are first gathered from the users
- business analytics analyze the requirements in terms of user goals/benefits, and discuss them with users
- the resulting requirements are discussed with developers in terms of feasibility, work required
- a prototype is made, where analytics test and comment, which allows fixing workflow quickly
- devs go all in, make stuff, test, deploy
- feedback is gathered
- product is improved through the same process.

I suggest we run the same process for major features, where negative reaction is expected. I can even prepare the requirements for you by talkingn with players.

I had already suggested a weighed list of limitations to preserving items, which would not overload the server and would work for the players. We can start with that.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Ezekiel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:52 am

Splork, your post of the current logged choppers is quite 'disingenuous.' Did you mention that Vege and others cycled in the day for those, and I cycled at night. That is the result after full cycling for 24 hours straight. It is a FULL-TIME process to cycle blinding choppers at the nerfed rate that they load. You act like it is simple...they are not readily available...it costs us TONS of time and wasted xp running time to cycle those...and yes...could we have cycled more for EU day sure..but it would have occupied all the time that we were supposed to be running EU by the time we got enough. You need to realize that the chopping with blinding choppers only makes up for the chop rate/mana difference that we lost in mud log-ons. Try chopping with regular choppers in a 6 man group with one healer. The yield for xp would be insanely low and not worth it. If you chopped on EU, you would maybe kill one to two mobs with that many people. Did we complain once when the pop rate for blinding choppers was reduced even? No, we figured it was a balancing move, weren't enthusiastic about it, but accepted it...was fine. So we stepped up the amount of time and effort required so we could keep chopping places like EU proficiently.

Splork wrote:
"I hardly feel that offering up 5 specs is a slap in the face and speaks to player harmony. In no way, shape, or form do we give any reimbursements for the loss of temporary items on crashes or reboots unless we are feeling generous. I understand the frustration, we have ALL been there before.

Honestly, that is just ridiculous and those comments absolutely piss me off.

I see an issue with the blinding choppers more than I see with game play which has been exactly the same for a quarter of a century. "

EXCEPT DYNAMICS CHANGED BECAUSE WE HAVE WAY LESS VIABLE CHARS MUDDING= LESS PEOPLE GROUPED= LESS CHANCE TO CHOP MOB/LESS MANA TO HEAL. FFS. It's a problem when you are so disconnected you can't see that blinding choppers just fill in a gap. Do you really think the mud gameplay is unchanged from 25 yrs ago when your who list now is cut in half, and very often, substantially more than half? Clearly, that would affect how groups operate and their proficiency. Currently: There are 7 visible players. I'm not complaining about log-ons, I'd just hope you'd see the err in your argument that is cloaked in stasis. Your group leaders are doing the best they can by adapting groups to lower log-ons, and we're being treated like we're putting in damn cheat codes.

And when you say 'I understand the frustration, we have ALL been there before.' ...that would be like me looking at someone bleeding out and saying 'Man, i know that hurts, i've been shot before' but not calling the police on the gunman I'm staring down the street at. Or worse, in this case, 'welp, this is just a bad neighborhood, this is the way it's always been, it sucked when it happened to me and I'm sorry for you...but I suppose I'll just wait for the next guy to bleed out so I can toss some empty sympathies to him also.' You can act to prevent situations that we've all suffered through before, or you can allow the situation to simply happen again since you are the one in control. You are in control to stop these shitty situations from repeatedly happening that make hours and hours of your players' hard work worth nothing by starting dialogue and not being dismissive/chalking it up to status quo.


I like how you never responded to the fact that you're fine with people wasting 8 hours cycling for a bonus day when I'm not even gaining from the endeavor myself and I am trying to lead others around a new cont that few have the time/understanding to lead. Players are being penalized for mud instability and you're shrugging, and yes, not even reimbursing any blinding choppers after 1/3 a day of cycling them is indeed a slap in the face and most of the mud, and likely most the imms, would even agree. Your attitude is the elephant in the room, you're the only one that can't see it. Diplomacy and empathy to player issues, not stonewalling with repeated mantra from 20 years ago, is the solution when your mud size starts shrinking. At least Juggleblood had a good grasp of this when he was still an imm. WAKE UP, or your few chars that are spending the most time providing groups/helping others/helping develop this mud community will find other muds where their efforts are actually appreciated, and not shrugged at. Or just keep living in your authoritarian fantasy where you still have 45 chars logged at a time and handling things with 'this is just the way it is, my way or leave' still worked...i really don't give a ****.

-Ezekiel

P.S. If i get passworded and crier removed like Juggleblood did for speaking the truth, it's been a fun 23 years mud. Censorship and god complexes go hand in hand. So does the dicta over dialogue approach.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby *Splork* » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:25 am

I could counter just about every point but this just goes in circles and since its obviously personal to you three, don't see the point. Its not good for anything Sloth related.

What happened between JB and I is not even close to what a few of you believe but that is between JB and I.

You are free to post what you want. Make it too personal and it will be deleted. Do it over and over and you will end up banned for awhile. These are not new rules. No different than the last quarter century.

Enjoy the conversation and banter, keep it clean and respectful :P
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Ezekiel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:29 am

Typical Splork-

Control, questioned, assert his dicta, pushback, dodge, evade, control, repeat.

Anything to preserve the status quo and power rather than insert a dialogue into that process about a repeated mud issue causing harm.

Sorry, I think we should be allowed to take things 'personally' when we have previously voiced concern about cyclical mud issues and we repeatedly get these type of responses. It shows an utter lack of concern for your playerbase and discredits keeping 'harmony' in the mud. It's not a shocker that some of your most seasoned chars in the mud also share my sentiments, since they've been exposed to/weathered under your one-sided nature of dealing with player issues for a long time.
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Re: Chopper issues

Postby Teron » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:13 am

I can't help commenting on what Breeze said about the rack:
Breeze wrote:- spec rack - so what do you want ? 100 slots ? even after rack went in, it stood empty. i am surprised there is stuff in it now.


1) Rack is full 95% of the time.
I can count the number of times it was empty on 1 hand:
- when I took all specs from it for Xerxes and it crashed
- when I took all specs from rack and went to Major Payne (or the SS well, I forget - wells were marked notemp, Major still is)
- Splat poofed some specs at Major, too,
- when Legends clan was cycling something.

All the times I saw the rack empty, I made sure it was refilled promptly.

The last few times I led chop, I took specs from my stash and avoided taking specs as far as I could handle, because there are many chances to lose them other than breaking.

Now, you say "after it went in" - how much time had passsed since it went in and how many times was it empty in your experience? Was there an active chop group at the time?

2)
Breeze wrote:the idea is to give you enough to get started in getting choppers, not remove chopper popping all together.


Now, I'm not sure you won't even condescend to reply to this post, so I'll try to guess what you mean under "not to remove chopper popping altogether".

a) Rack means choppers don't need to be popped.

Reality: even if there are 100 slots in the rack, someone will have to pop them.

Obviously, you didn't mean *that*, did you?

b) only the group needs to pop specs

Reality: several people choose to invest their lifetime in popping specs for groups, so groups run faster and don't have to slug through the chopper-popping process. It also something to do, if there are no groups.

So here is where we disagree: I think that whoever wants to pop specs, should be able to put it towards the group efforts, if he wishes, so groups don't need to pop specs.

If you think specs are popped easily, you are mistaken.

Here's how popping works:
- several people spend at least 10-15 min on the run
- wait for the area repop in 30-60 min
- see that mobs didnt pop anything
- repeat.

It's now normal to see mobs come up empty several times in a row. This is not an experience you want groups to have.

Compare it to meetings in companies: it's more rational to research at least some of the stuff yourself, than to call a 5-person meeting that'd help you find a solution, with few exceptions. Unless you are the CEO, I guess.

By spending 15 min on poppig specs, some brave soul saves 1.25hrs of lifetime of 6 group members, if he/she is one of the members. More lifetime is saved for huge groups - esp on chop day.

So for a group of 10 to hit Poseidon 2 times for nothing is to waste 200 minutes of lifetime combined, which can be avoided, if someone sacrifices his 30min to run the area twice.

Lyme stands w/o exp bonuses most of the time, so groups running at full speed in chop don't match offlyme exp/hr rate. If the chop group starts popping specs, it loses on exp even more.

c) Players will pop so many specs that they will never have to pop them again.

Reality: specs break at an alarming rate.
A group of 12 breaks about 8 specs in 3 hours, effectively replacing 66% of specs in the process.
So a group of 12 needs 20 specs not to waste time on popping specs.

So in 2-3 weeks, those 100 specs will be gone.

I hope now that it is clear that:
a) players will need to pop specs regardless of the rack
b) some players choose to donate their time into spec popping, so groups don't have to.
c) specs break and require significant effort to replace.

So, by implying that "6 choppers should be enough for anybody", you:
- disregard the intention/play choice of players to prepare for chop groups by popping specs in advance
- disregard the lifetime saving and exp boost they bring to huge groups
- forget that choppers break and need to be replenished - preferably outside a chop group.

This disregard for player involvement, sacrifice and wasted effort by crashes is what drives me up the wall.

Also, I'll tell you a secret.
If you increase the rack to 100, it will never be full.
It will be full enough to accomodate a large group, with some backup, so maybe at 30-40 specs. Maybe 50.
But never truly over 70, because by the time there are 25 specs left, you can pop extra to bring it back to the safe 40.

If you've been reading this, you might have noticed that the 100 spec rack won't be full for another reason: specs will be breaking often, so the spec poppers will need to work extra to replace them.
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