Useless support classes

[Teron]

Charisma could affect how inspired you are by someone's song, though.

Funny, just today I've thought that buying quest +charisma eq likely wouldn't be worth it for necros anyway, because they'd get more profit from spell bonus (also used in groups) or hand damage, if they go the hd route.

[Gorka]

I would be happy if there were far less prime skills.

*hissing* *jeering* *throwing fish*

The question is, what else would you give warriors to replace the loss of their most powerful prime skill? Giving full access to second wind to everyone would be a dramatic buff to all other classes, and is effectively a big nerf to warriors.

Is there a valid case that warrior is so good that everyone else needs a dramatic buff? If not, warriors will need a new skill, or every class should mainstream one of its prime skills.

Totally agree with Josiah here. I'm not against others having second wind, but seriously I would not have chosen warrior prime if I knew this was going to be the case and therefore I'd feel like my investment in Gorka was a waste of time. I'd be totally bummed to become effectively a "useless support class" (sic).

Although I do think that the mage class needs a "small crinkle" ironed out, I'm amused that 7 other classes and the "power players" who play them, are licking there lips, well professing to help out the mages of which we could all count on one hand.

Prime classes and skills give players identity, it's a mistake to mess with this. Fix mage mirrors, or allow there mage prime to cast another spell in a round. No need to give 2nd wind to everyone and therefore denigrate the warrior class.

[*Splork*]

Second Wind should have never gone in-game for warriors

Its safe to say we moved it and nerfed it for a reason

[Ezekiel]

Gorka,

Though I agree allowing some blast benefit to make up for warriors outblasting may be made in lieu of blanketing second wind..I think your reasoning against opening up second wind is somehow unfounded. Just because one of your prime skills gets opened up (and likely at a greater cost) to other classes does not make you less powerful. That is only a comparative illusion in your mind. If you think that one skill basically shifts your whole character from strong prime into useless support..it shows you just how overpowered and unbalanced that skill is and needs to be addressed as such.

I'll give you an example...say, hypothetically, all classes had frostbolt opened to them at a higher mana cost. That doesn't affect the fact that I have a whole set of spellbonus and saves eq and higher caps for both to make my bolts still stronger. It also would only make an incremental difference for non-primes using it, as frostbolt is not that much greater in base power than firewind (especially with all the heat and sun houses and lack of winters). The mana cost would likely lead them to continue to use firewind. The difference in the strength of the spell does not go down for me, and it minimally increases the power of those around me. That is balance.

Now take a skill like heavy armor proficiency...same thing. You could open up endless ac to say mages, but likely goes against their play style and they wouldn't be able to incorporate enough ac and maintain a decent level of spellbonus and spell dam which their chars are more geared for. It wouldn't make any difference to your power, since you will innately be structured more for ac anyway and hit your restricts faster even...and those who newly had it opened up to them likely will only see minimal, if any, benefit in chasing the max ac beyond what was previously allowed for their classo. That is balance.

With second wind, that is not the case. The use of it by warrior primes doesn't take a whole eq set to manufacture strength over other classes in or use stat caps over other classes in. It allows you to use any secondary skill (order lag, winds, shifting, strike, anything) and do it faster than a prime can, simply by learning the second wind skill. If you opened it up, even at a greater cost to non-primes, they would likely use it to affect the tactics/skills they should more likely be using faster as primes (but you are using at an increased rate). This is where I think your objection comes in, as there is no measureable comparative difference at the point which it would be changed, even if at an increased mv rate, since the skill can be used on any spell/skill. That shows you how unbalanced this skill is.

Do you think you should strike faster than a monk, shift faster than a druid, order faster than a necro, blast faster than a mage, all because you read a book at lev 32 prime? Sorry if you based char design on an overpowered skill, but if it is to remain..it's only sensible to fix what's broken and at least try to come up with a means for balance where you're not outdoing primes at their own class skills.

-Zeke

[Gorka]

Yeah, understood Eze, Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part... if others got second wind my "POINT OF DIFFERENCE" would go down, not my "POWER." I support prime classes and prime skills all the way. The "power players" want everything... I don't think that makes for a better game or encourages people to work together. I'd consider warriors with only parry and riposte a "weak prime." I'd probably rebirth Gorka as mage/warrior type if that happened.

I'd fix the mage issue by implementing a "fast blast" skill for prime mages, rather than giving every man and his dog second wind.

Other classes also have to realize that second wind is usually used to rescue, deathblow and other group warrior orientated tasks sparingly... we don't often have the spell dam, mana/regen to use the skill to potential... I only use it for house of sun/heat in the coliseum. A grip, a second wind or two and a deathblow and we are down 100 moves. If people think we second wind with firewinds all day everyday, that's simply not true.

Mages and Necro's have more to gain from second wind than warriors themselves. You won't see me second winding a broadside or a kick.

If there "IS" a problem with warriors having second wind... it's not the skill itself... it's the fact you can second wind everything... it probably should be skill/class specific... but I'd be unhappy if they changed warriors unless they properly fixed broadside or berserk in return.

[Gorka]

A bit more discussion with Ezekiel in game, and we kind of think that second wind should be warrior skills only... but warriors should be compensated... with a new prime skill... or vastly improved broadside or berserk.

I don't think the change would be popular... cue follow up posts from power players and wa/mo's... But all this trouble started basically because second wind can be used to do better than another prime in one of his skills. That's not really right... when you look at things in an "imm/balance" way.

I think a proper solution would look something like this...

* Second wind removed...
* New warrior prime skill added... or improved riposte frequency/broadside/berserk...
* New avatar skill called "improved speed" which enables specific spells or skills depending on their prime to be second winded at avatar level in a more balanced and fair way.

[Ker]

Awww more peaceful.

We should keep it that way, see ya when I see ya

Sends my love to Pixie!
Cya and gluck!
M

[*juggleblood*]

I think I'm on the losing side of this argument so I won't elaborate much, other than say I think Warrior is OP, they shouldn't get more actions. Second wind is fun and awesome, and we should all have it, for about 50 moves a pop. Warrior prime doesn't need compensated apart from maybe giving them back their ripostes on berserk (yes, it works from a realism sense...he's berserk...no it doesn't work from our skill balance sense). That's my parting shot on it.

Ah..and as Gorka pointed out, yes second wind is bugged. You should not be able to 2nd wind order lag, although I realize it would be a lot of work to create lag categories.