Rebirths

[Gorka]

3.reborn...

Should the number of rebirths be limited? Does it matter? What possible power increase would be realized by 3.reborn for instance?

[Filk]

Shrug. My idea for it to not be limited. So you can play for another 20 years for 20.reborns
I wrote example for 5.reborn in my offer post.

[Teron]

1.

1. Just for the record. I dont offer to keep any avatar bonus shops.

Fluffy, please be precise in your wording here. What you mean is that we don't keep avatar shop bonuses, not the shop itself :p
Since Josiah didn't keep his avatar shop bonuses, we keep that as the base rebirth condition and don't imply otherwise.

Thats why i offer plain +1 to each stat on each reincarnation.

Are you suggesting that a reborn will get 5 stats regardless of their natural stats, ie, get max stats, if they already have 18s? Do they keep getting max stats on 2-3d-4th rebirths?

or you reincarnate 5 times for the same bonuses without the shop.

You said that a reborn gets the same bonuses as now (1 max stat per stat), but then imply that they keep getting 5 sets of stats? Clarify.

2. Yes, I view it as a continuous process of 3-5 rebirths
However:
- casual players won't be reborn at 9x40
- 5-7 rebirths is near maximum of what one might attempt, imho
- I doubt many people will go for 3 either, because a single rebirth grants you x2 exp and x3 honor. No other rebirths do that.

3.

You get bonuses to your current caps. No matter, what classo you had before.

But a 1 level character doesn't have any caps. I guess it could be made that he does get higher caps.

4. But why do you insist on using caps specifically? I gave you several examples, where bonuses are limited by eq, not caps. Increasing caps won't do much for at least half of the bonuses. Especially that you need to use eq slots to use those caps.

5. Adding 10 spell bonus/etc per reborn won't add anything overpowering to a character, including a newbie character.
Even if we consider 5 rebirths, which would take 2 times it takes to get to 9x40, it'd give +50 spellbonus - just double of what the avatar shop gives you or almost same amount you get for leveling avatar classes.

You can't possible oneshot something with 50 spellbonus or stab dam after 3-4 years and *5* rebirths. In fact, to think about it, 10 skill bonus seems low for that amount of effort.

We were asked to be reasonable, not to shoot ourselves in the foot with rebirths. I'm trying to be reasonable, and yes, I do understand that we can't make this feature a cheat code.

For example, adding these skill bonuses innately is precisely what would make newbies much more powerful.
Perhaps, granting the skill bonus at 1x40 would make it less OP. And if you have +50 skill bonus from 5 remorts from playing the same class for 5-7 years and 3bil+ gold, maybe you do deserve it?

Gorka, there's no conflict of avatar shop and rebirths.

If you don't want to be reborn, just buy all the stats and effects.
If you want to be reborn, then you buy stats, reborn, level to 9x40, buy all you want.
If my idea for buying bonus skill bonuses is approved, then reborns can also buy bonus skill bonuses.
Simple.

[cyprimus]

For me the drachma is more than enough.. keeping stats good, 19 in all fine... do not care for more..

if spells carried over, i would get more actually... but do not see that happening, i likely have the most perma spells of anyone with cy.

caps for abilties... have no opinion on it, though going overcap on saves and spell bonus is quite powerful. No so much for heal bonus...

I liked what josiah got.. kepts stats, same 40's gear, same light, just redo dracma for more gears.

Maybe make the avvie shop open to reborn characters?

Do we wanna emphasize prime or make everyone into a one man army?

Breeze said discuss it amoung ourselves iirc.

I perfer prime... but i also have multiple max avvies of different primes.. the one man army means fewer experinced players will group.

Could also see perma spells opening up as you level or reach a point in certain classes.... ie-you regain your perma detect magic when you hit 40 mage, or you regain sense life at nx40.. etc..

Would be great to keep avvie shop stuff, but no idea if it would balance reasonably... not checked to see if caps increase gradually enough that having avvie shop purchases would unbalance the game or not. Having +25 healbonus and perma lite while leveling would seem helpful... but nearly all mobs after valk are balanced on the assumption you will be lit entire fight, so not really unbalancing.

Would seem to me, adding more than what josiah got would make for a massive drac haul from the coli.. but never done much on the lower ones. so dunno.,.whats a few thousand more drac gonna do...

anyways. gl

[Teron]

I thought about unlocking bought effects/spells at the next 9x40, but it'd be unfair to Josiah and I don't know how to do this retrospectively for him.

It would make some sense, though, so the exp/gold isn't wasted.

It'd also open the path for rebirth for old avatars, like Cyp, who have bought lots of stuff in the shop.
If bought stuff carries over to the other 9x40, then I suspect the most dedicated players would like to be reborn.

How op is it? I don't know. It doesn't increase anything by itself, but the rebirth does, because it becomes a matter of spending a year and 650mil gold and to keep your drachma eq, yet is balanced by keeping your prime class, compared to a remort.

[Filk]

1.

Thats why i offer plain +1 to each stat on each reincarnation.

Are you suggesting that a reborn will get 5 stats regardless of their natural stats, ie, get max stats, if they already have 18s? Do they keep getting max stats on 2-3d-4th rebirths?

My offer came from statement, that we remove ALL avatar shop purchases on remorting. Including basic stats purchases. Not evening speaking about max stats.
So in each reborn you get +1 to str, int, wis, dex and con. Until your stats become 5x18, regardless of your nats.
If that effect comes from a permanent buff spell, it doesnt hurt any current game system. At least from what i see now, since we have stats spells and permanent spells already.

But actually, we could just ignore and keep these basic stats, if they were purchased. That doesnt change much in whole picture.
Max stats are not transfered.

or you reincarnate 5 times for the same bonuses without the shop.

You said that a reborn gets the same bonuses as now (1 max stat per stat), but then imply that they keep getting 5 sets of stats? Clarify.

I meant overall picture about reborn power. That bonuses you get from reborn in 5 runs are somewhat looks like avatar shoped purchased by max, at least for several params.
That was about the question, if reborn is single way of playing if added - it isnt.

2. Yes, I view it as a continuous process of 3-5 rebirths
However:
- casual players won't be reborn at 9x40
- 5-7 rebirths is near maximum of what one might attempt, imho
- I doubt many people will go for 3 either, because a single rebirth grants you x2 exp and x3 honor. No other rebirths do that.

Shrug. Remorting bonus to exp is quite powerfull. Leveling is quite fast. And 9x40 players usually the most active players in the game
I will not be surprised to see Josiah or Dr doing these 5 reborns in 3 years. That means they will be heavy active in these years though, so its good

And we are speaking about the potential, not about the desire to do it. Even if only one player wish to do it.

3.

You get bonuses to your current caps. No matter, what classo you had before.

But a 1 level character doesn't have any caps. I guess it could be made that he does get higher caps.

Again. I speaking about the buff, that gives percent addition to your current values. So doesnt matter what exact values are.
(Level 1 has the same caps as level 39 i assume though)

[4. But why do you insist on using caps specifically? I gave you several examples, where bonuses are limited by eq, not caps. Increasing caps won't do much for at least half of the bonuses. Especially that you need to use eq slots to use those caps.

5. Adding 10 spell bonus/etc per reborn won't add anything overpowering to a character, including a newbie character.
Even if we consider 5 rebirths, which would take 2 times it takes to get to 9x40, it'd give +50 spellbonus - just double of what the avatar shop gives you or almost same amount you get for leveling avatar classes.

You can't possible oneshot something with 50 spellbonus or stab dam after 3-4 years and *5* rebirths. In fact, to think about it, 10 skill bonus seems low for that amount of effort.

We need to raise caps. Beause otherwise you will reach the top at some point.
But we cant just give bonus spell bonus to players, because it will be abused after some period.
Extra 50 spelldam above current top state is huge bonus. And has tendency to expotential speed growing, since your exp rate is raising with each such rebirth.

So we need some workaround decision, when players getting power, but not that much power

Maybe its on the edge between. We giving 5 spellbonus, 5 heal bonus, 1 reduce dam, 1 charisma, 1 unded control.
And raising caps by 5% at same time.
So for primes that give some direct bonus addition and little cap raising to that bonus to play with extra eq.
For other bonuses effect is limited by the cap(which i raising slower then plain addition), but that helps with eq setup.

We were asked to be reasonable, not to shoot ourselves in the foot with rebirths. I'm trying to be reasonable, and yes, I do understand that we can't make this feature a cheat code.

For example, adding these skill bonuses innately is precisely what would make newbies much more powerful.
Perhaps, granting the skill bonus at 1x40 would make it less OP. And if you have +50 skill bonus from 5 remorts from playing the same class for 5-7 years and 3bil+ gold, maybe you do deserve it?

I guess i think that 50 bonus stats is just to high for five remorts. So we could deal on a half, like i said few lines above

[Teron]

Explain to me, why you think that +50 bonus is too high for 5 remorts.
You get the same bonus for leveling avatars.
You buy half of that from the shop.
And here you say that getting the same bonus for leveling from 1 to 9x40 5 times is too much? Why?

[Filk]

Because you get 50 extra. Over the shop. And after it, you get 100 extra. And then 500 extra. And so on.
With actually 5, 10 and 50 extra damage at same time with that bonuses. Which also not any good(so kinda we should not raise dam, but hand/stab/weapon dam instead, because they are capped).

I dont count time, because its irrelevant. No matter when, but we seeding a balance black hole here. Which will explode sooner or later. Thats why i think that some cap must be. Or lowering effect of each next rebirth by some degree, which will curve to zero eventually, so i dont like that variant.

Well. I would like to get such power and so on, but:
1. imms will not pass it through
2. that will break game once imho

[Zlodiak]

What about making chars 10x40, where 10th class is remort?
So, with first remort u'll became lvl1 in this class.
It'll take some time to get to 10x40
Also, it's possible to write manual bonuses for each remort level, like bonuses for avatar levels.

As for me, buying upgrades in avatar shops and losing em on remort, well... senseless.
Mb, trade em to some exp bonuses, like one upgrade will count as +1% exp after remort.
So, it may be profitably to buy these upgrades even just for future (after remort) exp bonuses, while having fun with getting upgrade bonuses right now.

[Filk]

I guess making x10 class will be too huge change to the game. No one will do it probably untill another global restart, which is doubtfully coming

You are not forced to make purchaces at avatar shop. Its your will, if you going for remort, or gonna play at 9x40. So i dont see any problem here

[Teron]

Because you get 50 extra. Over the shop. And after it, you get 100 extra. And then 500 extra. And so on.
With actually 5, 10 and 50 extra damage at same time with that bonuses. Which also not any good(so kinda we should not raise dam, but hand/stab/weapon dam instead, because they are capped).

I proposed one of the variants:
- add +10 skill bonus - it'd still fill the cap. You can't get 100 above cap, you can only fill the cap.
- buy bonus skill bonus. Since you can't buy bonus sb, remort, and keep it, you can only buy it at your last 9x40

I agree that bonus skill bonus is more powerful, that's why adding bonuses to fill the cap would work better. Basic bonuses will allow players be more powerful in other aspects of their skills.

You could get above cap if the second variant gets chosen, but can you really expect 50 remorts? Are you serious? I don't think some of us will live long enough to do them, let alone keep playing the same class for 20-40 years.

Ok, even if you do remort 20 times, why do you deserve 200 higher cap? Won't you get powerful if you get eq? Buying bonus skill bonus here isn't radically different, because you simply pay for the bonus you'd otherwise have gotten from eq to fill your +200 cap.

Either with the cap variant, or basic skill bonuses, the amount of rebirths is limited by the eq caps, hard caps and the amount of drachma items one can buy in the shops. I doubt anyone will be reborn just to get uncapped stats, like +1 dam/+1 hitroll.

[Filk]

Well. From any of those ways, there are troubles. Or you get too much in long way, or you get too few in each reborn.

Maybe we should give up with idea of endless reborn and just set up like 5-10 steps of rebirths. With predefined bonuses for each(maybe even the same each time). But limited at top. So its really like hidden 10th class.
Which dont requires to rewrite game mechanics.
And if/when someone reach 5, we will be able to look back and see, if extra cycles should be added and what bonuses they would have.

Oh! That could even be set of permanent buffs player could buy at cost of deleveling(with all remort and quest cleaning side).
So player could each time buy only one buff, but the one he wants. And we could prepare several of those with different good and stong sides. So cap will be at purchasing them all(though some will be not good for some classes)

Actually, maybe its even fair to keep avatar shop in its place, and keep all purchases you made. Just dont reseting them. So you buy it once, and then going to reborn way for extra power. I understand, that we leave Josiah behind that. But there are different variants of solving that issue.

Such buff system even looks like extended avatar bonus shop. So it fits current logic even better.

[Gorka]

Maybe we should give up with idea of endless reborn and just set up like 5-10 steps of rebirths. With predefined bonuses for each(maybe even the same each time).

Well it seems to me the conversation is getting bogged down, and complex... at risk of nothing happening! Josiah kept his stats, good... I think there should be one other sweetener, and setting up stat bonuses for the next 10 rebirths is the easiest way to solve the problem I think.

I'll propose an idea for discussion...

For each rebirth... +2 hit, +2 damage, 10 Bonus Spell Bonus, 10 Bonus Heal Bonus

I think Josiah got a good deal and if you'd all like to spend some time improving drachma eq at the other thread, I for one would be happy.

[Filk]

For each rebirth... +2 hit, +2 damage, 10 Bonus Spell Bonus, 10 Bonus Heal Bonus

And .2ac, 2 mr.
Quests cleaned. Remorted bonus granted. Avatar shop purchases persists.
Ok. Sounds like a good plan to me for next 10 years

[Teron]

1. So we agree that 9x40 bonuses should be kept and revealed at 9x40 - we only need to convince Breeze to grant that to Josiah.

Converting bonuses to exp/gold for leveling would be to skip the joy of redoing Valk again for the *teenth time.

2. You also agree that reborn can pick a bonus skill bonus. I like this idea better, than buying 10 bsb for all skills at the end or than filling caps with 10 skill bonus.

So, as you are reborn, you should be able to pick 3 unique bonuses, out of 11 secondary stats:
10 bonus spell bonus
10 bonus heal bonus
7 bonus flail
5 bonus stab damage
5 bonus circle damage
2 bonus weapon damage
2 bonus hand damage
2 bonus sys shock
2 bonus control undead
2 bonus charisma
2 bonus of all saves

You pick them at 9x40 before remort, and you get them at the next level 1. They accumulate through rebirths.

If you want to discuss bonuses, say:
- whether it's a bonus bonus or a standard bonus
- when it is applied to your char (lev 1, scaling or at 9x40)

If not, then it's hard to understand what's being talked about.

3. I guess -0.2 +2dam etc look ok to me.