Rebirths

[Gorka]

Yes, the power increment of the ideas in this thread has amused me also.

I still maintain Josiah got a sweet deal, it just needed a bit more for all those avatars who purchased things at the shop... keeping avatar purchases would do that.

There is already a threads about improving avatar shop, and drachma eq... if these were indeed improved in the future, then the deal Josiah got (plus keeping purchases) is completely fine.

[Teron]

The cost of bonuses including ac/dam is about 300-350bil w/o considering it's bonus. Irrc 300bil is what you spend on the few last 40s. Earlier I suggested picking 2 or 3 bonuses, but it was said to be too complex.

Also, didn't Splork say it was a discussion? Am I wrong to assume that, as well as that it doesn't require his stamp of approval, if there's an agreement among imms (and maybe players) on the topic?

As for reasonable, it's simple: we didn't set goals/expectations for the task. And yes, our definitions differ, but it's not a huge problem, if you clarify what is reasonable by your understanding.

Goal: keep the status quo.
Solution: leave it as it is.

Goal: make slight improvements that won't change the game
Solution: keep avatar bonuses and change the light at 9x40

Goal: make rebirth something one would want to repeat more than once:
Solution: -0.2 +2dam +2hit +2mr, possibly with spell bonuses, etc

Goal: make rebirthing something that'd any avatar would want to do, rather than buying up the shop and quitting or remorting, and quitting.
Solution: offer them something they can't refuse, such as a prime skill

If your only measure is that you can't devote a lot of time to it, sure, let's go by that. It's true that I kept setting my expectations high, and within those expectations, I tried to remain reasonable.

If anything, the program can be improved over time and early reborns won't be upset if the changes apply retroactively.

[*Splork*]

Code: Select all

Also, didn't Splork say it was a discussion? Am I wrong to assume that, as well as that it doesn't require his stamp of approval, if there's an agreement among imms (and maybe players) on the topic?

I am and always will be concerned with balance(I believe the entire Immortal team is). I am also part of that Immortal team. In one thread, several of you clearly state that avatars are running wild in group areas. In this thread, you want to give those very same avatars even more power.

There needs to be a balance and it needs to come from discussion between all parties.

There also needs to be simplicity. If anyone here thinks that taking something which we did for one person(and would gladly do for anyone else) and then adding 20+ requirements is actually encouraging someone to code it is simply insane....

Again, there is a middle ground if you are willing to reach it.

[Teron]

In the gold thread, where Josiah and I killed large mobs, we spent lots of potions, a number of regen scrolls, and corpses, to get through the mobs. We didn't even kill all the mobs, just skipped past the upper levels and hit Shiva for a good measure.

We felt that the time/effort investment was worth it to discover a fun place to level gold. Turns out, it's not.

In a standard environment, where we don't need to push ourselves to explore in a quick manner, it'd be unreasonable to solo or 2man most of these mobs.

And yes, I do mean that players should be rewarded for their effort. That there are areas that can't interest and contain them (I'm looking at you, Mystica) is just another issue to solve.

And still, I'm willing to find the middle ground, provided imms and players clearly state what they want and expect. Without imm feedback we were just shooting in the dark here.

[Josiah]

I wouldn't call our area exploration 'running wild in a group area.' We burned through about 500k gold worth of consumables in order to 'run wild in a group area.' Exploring the changes to pagoda also took us the better part of an hour.

In return, we found the amount of gold we could have received from 5 minutes in elemental school. Our bank accounts were emptier after our rampage than when we started. Despite the heavy use of consumables, the xp was about five times worse than lyme grip xp.

Obviously Juggleblood had a different idea than we did about what we meant by an area that could be grouped for gold. Splork has stated that the area we are picturing will not be happening.

The changes to Pagoda have improved the area from bad to mediocre. I would consider bringing a group there now if all of the good areas have been cleared. The mud is better now. Thanks for your effort Juggleblood!

[Filk]

About additional prime classes. I understand that will not gonna be easy task. But maybe its the one is worth doing actually.
Because with adding this, we actually changing whole idea of classo to so high depth that most of avatars will return just to see how it works
With huge raise of interest to optimal coombinations, new tricks and tactics. Greatly raising replayability.

That variant is quite interesting if we decide to do it.
But i realize that somebody should pick that on his shoulders. So its only up to you imm-guys, if you will pick it up

About plain bonuses - Taron asking for too much imho. Most of it isnt really usefull that much to reborn for it. Also some stats are duplication each other.
Still think that -0.2ac, +2dam, +2hit, +2mr, 10 bonus spell bonus, 10 bonus heal bonus is enough. Only if little extra hp an mana beyond it.
But that will be really option only for boring avatars. Not next stage of playing like prime variant could be.

[*Splork*]

The "running wild in group areas" was brought to me before JB ever made the change to that area.

It had zero to do with you guys.

[*Breeze*]

.. snip ..

Am I wrong to assume that, as well as that it doesn't require his stamp of approval, if there's an agreement among imms (and maybe players) on the topic?

..snip..

every change i make i run by splork.
splork does the same with me.
whenever teker changes things, he emails us.

its how we keep the balance. we dont want to create newbies who can solo iblis/innkeepers.

hmm that could be fun. let make iblis into an innkeeper.

[Filk]

Well. Better comment about our topic related ideas. What do you think about them in terms of balance etc

[Teron]

So currently, it seems that what can be done is:
what Josiah's got
retain avatar bonuses at 9x40
change/make new light at 9x40
retroactively apply to Josiah

And we are waiting to know if -0.2ac +2dam +2hit +2mr +10sb +10hb is reasonable enough.

Is it?

[*Breeze*]

I already stated where i stand on those bonuses.
a few posts ago.

convince Splork to approve it and I see if it's doable.

I may be willing to do 1 or 2 of those per rebirth but Splork still has to approve

especially since I would need to code the rebirthed store to make that work.

also I checked and I need to fix the automated avatar light trade in. not sure where the mudl for it went //who deleted it.

[*Splork*]

I actually like the idea of rebirth which is why we agreed to it. The only thing which concerns me is the fact that all of our 9x40s are power players. How quickly are they going to be able to achieve the next rebirth?

Could Josiah(or another character) literally ruin the game for others with 5 rebirth worth of powers? That's a question for you guys and if you feel that these characters won't ruin the game for others, than there isn't an issue.

However, if people judge wrong and we have a group of overpowered rebirthed Avatars going crazy, the game only has couple of different options to fix the issue

I am staying completely out of this one.

Good thread!

[Filk]

If we speaks about little stats increase(ie +2 to everything from posts above), thats just 10-20 extra damage for 5-10 reborns. And extra 1-2ac. Good, but doesnt seems like any gamebreaking addition.

If we speaks about prime skills transfer, which is way more interesting in terms of gameplay.
Max one player can get is:
- warrior: parry, second wind, riposte, massive critical hit
- monk: focus, presage,wraithtouch, kensai, prediction, deathtouch
- bard: adaptation to circumstances, dance with the dead, dance of the seven luck gods, call of the sidhe, - knights blessing, song of the mist, knights prayer
- thief: circle, apply poison, sleight of hand
- druid: shapeshift form to form, shield of thorns, canopied arbor
- necromancer: ritual of resurrection, wraithform, death pact
- mage: frostbolt, reflection, mirror image, blizzard
- cleric: dark mace, aerial servant, circle of healing, kylas delight
(Btw we dont have prime druids, necros and cleric avatar abilities. Maybe worth to think about it and add something. For druids that could be extra reduce lag and costs of shifts for example. For clerics and necros - auto assist of pets of their types. But thats just as sideline of topic.)

Adding power is something, that could be used at same time with other abilities. Otherwise its just diversity.
- So warriors skills are good. All usefull and strong. Common choice to pick for second class probably for non-warriors and non-druids

- For those, who grips focus is good. But not any op. Deathtouch is cool, but not real power difference between it or good thief's stab with poison. Presage gives some utility, but not real power.

- I am not good with bards, but it seems that no real power in any of those. Support things mostly. Good to have, nothing to fear about.

- Circle is just another incombat ability, no power. Poison and sleight of hand complect is good addition for stabbers. Not seems as overkill. All thiefs abilities even adding some equality to monk/thiefs choice of combat oppeners. Atm monk seems more common and powerfull variant.

-Druid gives only shield of torns. Quite strong. With current extra regen that still worth to pick it second class.

- Necro giving juju and wraithform. That one really powerfull probably. Though juju is limited by basic non-necro prime order issues, but still impressive power gain.

-Mage gives only mirrors actually. And they are weak atm, too costly, too low effect. Frost is little better then wind, but only for blasters(and thats maybe bards and clerics only?). Who are limited by spell dam cap anyway to be compared to real mage power.

-Clerics gives servant and mace. Servant is solid addition because its passive. Mace is fairly balanced imho.

So some final coombination will be
Parry, riposte, massive crit, shield of torns, wraithform and aerial servant as passive effects. And juju. With downside effect of more mana consumption for keeping all new spells up.
All active abilities doesnt seem to me as overkill, because they all not will be better then prime ones. So better stab or deathtouch. Frostbolts instead of winds. And second wind. Thats probably all?
Which will take several years of constant intensive playing, dont forget.

Lets think what one player able to do with such power.
Solo Lucifer and other epics? Some ppl able to do it already. Takes plenty of time. Will be little faster. Maybe even twice faster. Instead of 12 hours for Lucifer, will be 6
Worth to do if you need balls of Lucifer, or any other pop from epics.
But doubtfully for any other reason. Too long. And still will be too long after 8xreborns i guess.
We not adding that much power to splork epics.
And most ppl still prefer to group, because its more interesting and actually easy.

Group of such avatars will kill things way faster for sure. But remember, that most of them will be in rebirth process constantly for next several years
And on other hand, that will allow to add new hard areas. With increased power. And increased output though. New hard forges, new hard epics
Such additions will never ruin the mud in my opinion.

[Teron]

1. The rate of rebirths and power depend on how enticing rebirthing is, which depends on whether we get to use another prime skill after it.

If there are no prime skills to add, I wouldn't rebirth solely for -0.2ac +2dam, because it's a huge time investment.
In this case, I'd rather create a remort from the rebirthed char to play another class, even though I already made and leveled alts with the classes I wanted. Or keep playing the main char, just because (also because I'd level an alt to 5x40, not 9x40, and lose a chance of rebirthing).

If we get 1 prime skill, it's going to be very interesting, but no concern with excessive power.

If all prime skills of a secondary and additional classes for subsequent rebirths, then yeah, there might be people with -1.0 +10dam bonus and some prime skills in 3-5 years. However, that's good, but not game breaking, esp for other players.

We already have players, who can clear all Lyme solo areas in 1-2 runs, so there'll be little change here.

2. If the concern is about prime skills, then yeah, that'll make them somewhat more powerful, but not to the point of doubling or tripling their power (though a mage with riposte, massive crit and second wind would be close).

If you are concerned with powerplayers, make areas for them, don't hope for them to fit into the areas that were made for 4-5x40s in S3. Even then, I doubt most ppl would solo areas that are above their power/skill, like the Spire or Mystica, if only out of boredom, so there needs to be a good balance of difficulty and reward for solo/group players and it's achievable with some work on areas.

3. By the way. Whatever the power players have, whatever areas immorts create, players will not be able to level astonishingly much faster, because there's a cap of 10mil. Even if there is an area or two with 10mil solo mobs, it'll only make exping 20-30% faster for power avatars, while others won't be able to solo there as effectively. Will it ruin the game for them? I doubt it.

[Zlodiak]

As for me adding some reasonable bonuses for remort won't ruin game.
At least it can't be compared to some "features" that ruin game much more.
My top of these features:
1) Abusing battle ticks.
I can't consider it somehow differently than cheat.
There are numerous ways to fix it, so if it wasn't fixed yet it counts as feature.
But i personally count it as most gamebreak cheat and not going to use anyway.
1a) Second wind.
An additional to abusing battle ticks. Also, as was mentioned above, ruining others classes advantages, like necro's order lag etc.
I think that shouldn't be given to other classes, just remove it at all, or, at least leave it as warrior prime skill but make it's cost significantly higher, like 50mv at all levels instead of 30mv at start and 15mv at avatar.
2) Coli potions.
How can we seriously speak about balance having these potions in game?
I'm spending less than 10% of my play time in arena and i have no problem with elite potions.
Their effects are just insane. We are talking about giving -2 AC for 10 remorts while we have potions that can be gained in may be 15 min. Potions with extra attack, max_dex, 2 max_con, insane healing, mana charge and so on...
Well... i'd say their effects should be reduced some and their pop rate should be reduced drastically.
3) Coli regen.
Not that game breaking feature, but... i can regen about 900 mana in 2 minutes in coli.
Giving 2mr for rebirth doesn't looks too OP for me

Unlike paragraph 1, coli things can be removed easily. I really doubt someone was building his char due these coli potions/regen, so nerfing it shouldn't hurt much anyone.
As for abusing battle ticks, fixing it will change some player's playstyle too hard, so it's not too good to implement at this time. But, it may be (and should be) a subject for discussion if another wipe would ever happens.

-0.2 AC +2mr +2 dam +10 bonus spellbonus +10 bonus heal spellbonus looks ok for me.
Or may be change 2 damage bonus to 1 damage + 1+2 weapon damage + something for monks. May be some hp/mana/mv too.

Prime skill things looks very interesting but... so unbalanced.
Prime skills are not equal at all. Some classes have strong prime skills, some classes have weak prime skills. Those who have weak have others advantages. I believe prime skills was added this way to balance classes better.
So, with having all prime skills we'll end up with some classes definetely better than others, due to their innate abilities. Noone will take cleric or monk as prime class after rebirth.
We need to rework this system hard and it looks quite hard to implement, so it might be stop factor.