Rebirths

[Teron]

What's left to discuss:
1. Bonuses: caps or standard bonuses or bonus bonuses?

Fluffy says that no 3 out of 11, just across the board.

2. Avatar light: exchange or a new one?
I feel that since we don't get additional tri40 eq, no additional 9x40 light is necessary, but the reborn should get 3 free exchanges of tri40 eq and an exchange of 9x40 light stats.

[Filk]

I vote for most plain and simple variant. Which is easy to implement, and easy to understand.
So no mess with the caps. Just plain bonus bonus skill. Limited by 10 reborns.

Idea with some shop to choose stats from is hard to do, and really hard to balance. So i prefer to throw it away.

I dont think there should be extra 3x40 exchanges. You dont do it that often. And there is ingame option for that. So no real point. Though exchnage price could reseted to minimal value.

Extra 9x40 light actually might be really interesting addition. Its fair balanced, not giving real extra power, but polishing eq sets instead. And probably very easy to code it, since you need just to remove one flag from player data probably.

[Josiah]

You are all trying to figure out how to power up your characters via rebirth, which really wasn't my original purpose. My goal was just to enjoy leveling again on the character that I love.

Making it a core feature of Slothmud though definitely implies some power creep. Right now the biggest help to me would be an increased xp cap. +50% over the normal caps would be very appreciated.

If rebirth becomes a part of normal gameplay, and especially if doing it multiple times becomes a thing, then retaining avatar shop purchases and unlocking them at 9x40 seems reasonable.

Some flat boosts for reborn characters is reasonable, but uninspiring. The ability to choose from a selection of bonuses is more interesting. Purchasing unique boosts at the cost of 360 levels is very interesting, but I'm not sure what kind of boosts we could reasonably unlock that way. +50% duration on spells? -200 milliseconds on skill and spell lag? +10% bonus xp? +6% mana regen? 6 bonus DR? Unlocking a prime spell from another class?

I'm afraid we are all looking rather greedy at the moment! 350 billion xp and 350 million coins, the cost to reach 9x40 again, is an awfully high cost. It doesn't even compare to maxing out your character on in the avatar shop, because you have to earn the 350 Billion without the power of a 9x40. I totally understand people wanting a big payout from it, but lets try to stay reasonable and not scare the imms!

This could be a big turning point in game design, perhaps the biggest since the start of Sloth IV. We definitely need to support the immorts. They have have never been more obviously listening and supportive.

[cyprimus]

I agree with Josiah.

Cept that leveling is fun, not a huge task.

Can see ppl wanting to retain more.. i would love too retain all cy has ..but agree its too much for a newbie. Just knowing what you will get/keep is helpful. This is more what i expected from the remort process than what happenned, but having both options will open it to more ppl imo.

Thinking about it.. 360 levels for over 4 k drac.. so essentially 10 drac a level.. good deal imo.

[Teron]

Josiah, I agree wholeheartedly.

Mainly, my concern about 9x40 light and tri40eq is for the compatibility with the new classo. A concern for player experience, if you will.

The reason I'd like bonus bonuses is precisely for something to accumulate across rebirths. Doing it just for ac/+dam/+regen seems too cheap, and the drachma shop is limited in the items, unless Teker codes a custom shop.

I did some research on other MUDs with remorts (the link sums it up nicely) and they way they do it is they let ppl add another class or skills. What we could add to rebirth is prime skills, which would make rebirthing very exciting and almost a must for any hard-working player, however, I find it'll be hard to convince Breeze to add prime skills to the mix precisely for the reasonability reasons.

I'd also support some unique bonuses, however we as players are limited by our mortal thinking, and by the reasonability requirement. I don't know what imms can do quickly and what they count as reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean under "we should support the immorts", but we definitely need to help make the feature as useful and enticing for it to be in demand, but not significantly overpowering.

Truth be told, be able to use another prime skill after rebirth seems very natural and appealing.

[*Splork*]

I vote for most plain and simple variant. Which is easy to implement, and easy to understand.

This is key, otherwise there is a good chance it does not get implemented. We agreed to doing this because it wasn't a huge pain in the ass(although it was not simple either)!

Hopefully, we can come up with something which isn't too difficult to implement and we can complete relatively quickly.

[Filk]

For each rebirth... +2 hit, +2 damage, 10 Bonus Spell Bonus, 10 Bonus Heal Bonus

And .2ac, 2 mr.
Quests cleaned. Remorted bonus granted. Avatar shop purchases persists.
Ok. Sounds like a good plan to me for next 10 years

Well. It seems that most of us who wanted to get some stats at rebirth got conclusion about that variant. Limited by maximum 10 rebirth. Made in form of permanent stacking buff(or 10 different buffs with same effect, or 10 non-stacking with higher one replaces previous one. Whatever)

Though i would offer 10% buffs duration here as well each time(we have such option already in enchantment stratum, so that doubtfully will be hard)

So probably we need to hear immortals opinion about that result. What do you think guys? Too weak? To strong? How hard to do&

[Teron]

1. Why cap at 10? Seems like an arbitrary number. Why not 7 or 15? If you rebirth 20 times in 10-15 years, what exactly stops you from having +200 heal bonus?

2. What about other things players can get for rebirthing? After all, the cost and time investment into it are immense.

It could be one of these bonuses:
- one prime skill, as it is customary to acquire skills on rebirths
- 25% less spell/skill lag to the maximum of -50%
- no lost concentration on spells
- 100% on skills

and one of these:
- immune to paralysis/fear/blind
- immune to chop
- no hunger/thirst
- rent with 50 more items, carry 100 more
- reduce move lag and/or cost to absolute minimum
- reduce avatar shop costs of 1bil/1mil gold per rebirth (in case of hp/mana/mv, 100mil/100k)

I'd imagine it's fairly simple to do some of those, and not the others, such as skill/move lag or the shop discount.

3. The thing is, I see little incentive to rebirth past the first 2-3 times just to get -0.2ac/2dam/bonuses. I'd get 1-2% ac/damage in 6-12 months and I'd need to play for 33 years and 4 months more to recoup the time I spend leveling, rather than tanking at max ac. You could say I'd be increasing my max ac, but really, it's not that impressive.

For mages it's perhaps most worthwhile, because they get 7% above their sb cap. Clerics get what, 5%? For monks and thieves - maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

Others can rebirth just once to get the exp/honor bonus.

If we can get a prime skill each rebirth or major lag decreases/immunities, then it'll make rebirths worth it for a long while, because there plenty of prime skills I'd love to have as a warrior. I'm sure everyone can find a prime skill he'd love to have on their main, too.

Also, it'd be awesome to be immune to blind, chop, or to run like hell underwater or have other bonuses.

[Filk]

Some custom effect are interesting. But that requires some new shop or other interface to do it. Along with effects itself. Which maybe little to hard to do.

Though i really like the idea of getting another prime abilities on each reborn. On 2nd you get all abilities of 2nd class. On 8th reborn you get all prime abilities of all classes. And thats logical end to reborn line in that variant. So it will be limited by eight times. No extra bonuses or caps raising - just skills and spells.
On each reborn you could pick any class order, so your gameplay each time could change drastically. That will add very big depth to the avatar life.
And plain bonuses we mentioned before are also could be done. Just as cherry on a cake.

[Teron]

1. I guess prime skills dependant on class order is logical, however we don't choose classo based on that. Maybe it'll add another dimension to classo picking for rebirthing.

Though we can change classos during rebirth, does it mean that perm skills persist once gotten?

2. I don't think we need a hard limit on rebirths, let it be set by game mechanics and player preference.

If someone wants to be reborn for the 10th time, let him, he'll just get whatever bonuses he'll get for it.

That's why it's important to offer more unique bonuses per rebirth to keep players interested, though prime skills is a great incentive.

[Filk]

Though we can change classos during rebirth, does it mean that perm skills persist once gotten?

I think its always depends on current class order. You just increase counter of how much classes after first you get each time. So on each rebirth you could change your play style totally.
Since currently status of skills learned doesnt changes, so no problems with changing order - you just cant use skills with classes beyond the counter on any taken moment.

About everything other - we should draw hardline somewhere where immortals agree to do some. If you push harder, we get nothing at all.
For next 8 rebirthes we get good improvement. When/if somebody will get them all, we could raise that question again and see, what is posible after and how balance changed after all these changes.
I dont see any reason at trying to build infinite rebirth cycle right now. I already told it before.

[Teron]

Yeah, I'll let imms draw the line on additional bonuses.

So far it looks like this:

Exp bonus, honor bonus.

Quests are reset, personal eq is kept.

Innate -0.2ac +2dam +2hit +2mr

10 bonus spell bonus
10 bonus heal bonus
7 bonus flail
5 bonus stab damage
5 bonus circle damage
2 bonus weapon damage
2 bonus hand damage
2 bonus sys shock
2 bonus control undead
2 bonus charisma
2 bonus of all saves

Access to one more class to use primary skills from, starting from secondary

Avatar shop effects are retained and enabled at 9x40

Avatar light is either added or picked anew.

Apply retroactively to Josiah.

One or several of these, up to imms to decide, whether they are easy/reasonable:
- 25% less spell/skill lag to the maximum of -50%
- no lost concentration on spells
- 100% on skills
- immune to paralysis/fear/blind
- immune to chop
- no hunger/thirst
- rent with 50 more items, carry 100 more
- reduce move lag and/or cost to absolute minimum
- reduce avatar shop costs of 1bil/1mil gold per rebirth (in case of hp/mana/mv, 100mil/100k).

[Josiah]

It kind of looks like you took everything that was suggested, and then asked for all of it.

[Teron]

Yup. Because one thing is to rebirth out of boredom or for drachma, another is to be reborn to gain a skill.

I left extra bonuses for imms discretion, which is close to not being implemented.

What's your suggestion, then?

[*Breeze*]

Yeah, I'll let imms draw the line on additional bonuses.

gee... thanks..

Exp bonus, honor bonus.

that already happens by applying remort flag

Quests are reset, personal eq is kept.

ofc

Innate -0.2ac +2dam +2hit +2mr

10 bonus spell bonus
10 bonus heal bonus
7 bonus flail
5 bonus stab damage
5 bonus circle damage
2 bonus weapon damage
2 bonus hand damage
2 bonus sys shock
2 bonus control undead
2 bonus charisma
2 bonus of all saves

splork will most likely not approve that. at least not on each rebirth adds that amount.
go ahead and figure out the avatar shop cost of all that (if its in shop.. if not, guesstimate it)
while you are at it

Access to one more class to use primary skills from, starting from secondary

not as easy to do as it sounds. there is code in place specifically to disallow that.

Avatar shop effects are retained and enabled at 9x40

doable

Avatar light is either added or picked anew.

there is/was already a way to do that in game.
need to check if its still there and if not re-enable it.

Apply retroactively to Josiah.

ofc

One or several of these, up to imms to decide, whether they are easy/reasonable:
- 25% less spell/skill lag to the maximum of -50%
- no lost concentration on spells
- 100% on skills
- immune to paralysis/fear/blind
- immune to chop
- no hunger/thirst
- rent with 50 more items, carry 100 more
- reduce move lag and/or cost to absolute minimum
- reduce avatar shop costs of 1bil/1mil gold per rebirth (in case of hp/mana/mv, 100mil/100k).

no comment at this time.

also seems our definitions of ~reasonable~ differ.

this seems to be turning from something i did on a whim to something nobody will be happy with, including me, if i have to spend weeks/months coding and testing.

bedtime.