So crazy it just might work...

[Ker]

It was already a mistake having caps across the board inclusive of 9x40 purchases at the Avatar shop, I don't even understand why players are vouching for a 5x40 - 6x40 Avatar purchase. Doesn't this make the existing problems an even bigger one?

Players are already losing field in this area, you can't achieve measly hundreds of millions of exp to level but want to spend billions on buying stats.

Wut?

[Gorka]

After reading everyone's further analysis... I kind of agree that opening the avatar shop at 5x40, would ALMOST be pointless. As Taron pointed out leveling is soooooo much more beneficial to your character than buying stats.

An avatar level is +2hp +1ma +1mv possibly some regen, hit or dam and usually a good skill. To buy that in the shop is going to be infinitely more expensive than just leveling your character in an avatar level. You'd be stupid to buy too much from the avatar shop, you'd being shooting your progress in the foot!

My original reason to open the shop earlier (3x40), was to help address eq inbalances in the game for earlier players... waiting for 5x40 doesn't do that, and even at 5x40 it would seem the prices almost put this out of reach as being worth doing. Even though opening up the shop is probably a good idea, I admit it's not looking like it's going to have a practical effect on any of the issues.

However, this does not mean the idea CAN work... it would just mean prices need to change also...

There is another thing about the system that is kind of broke... the economy of the prices is crazy... if you haven't noticed the real power in this game is mana... once you've purchased 25ma... that's a firewind in damage... that's like 200hp... imagine how much weapon damage you'd have to buy to make up that 200hp that the firewind is doing instantly with 25ma. By the time that 25ma has recharged for another firewind, is damage going to be a winner? Of course not. Mana and it's regen is actually the power stat. What are the most powerful items in the coliseum? Blue potions and scrolls... because they restore mana. Damage is actually overpriced in this game, I'd buy mana any day of the week, except in cases where the damage is a multiplier for stab or grip. Mana is where it's at, but this isn't reflected in the shop, some of the prices like stab damage (and others) make a mockery of any sense of economy.

The first thing that needs to be done properly is a fair and comparable price for each stat... There are ways to calculate this, by making fictitious fight scenarios of various sized mobs, and work out in a scaled manner how much each particular power is shortening the fight... and then assigning it a fair value. Once again I am willing to produce a report that openly demonstrates in mock battles which stats are improving performance the most so there prices could be scaled fairly... In fact I may even have the calculations I did in s3 somewhere...

Opening the shop, might not be a solution right now, but it can be if prices are changed... as Idjit was first to point out, and as it is popular in other games, when buying stats it's a good idea to scale the prices with a ratio. The player should be getting xp easier with each purchase, so the prices scale accordingly... at least that's the idea.

You buy 1 mana for say 500,000xp, the next one is 600,000, the next one 720,000 etc until you hit cap (1.2x).

The reason this is a solution, is because the first purchases are cheaper... and therefore easier for 3x40, 4x40, 5x40 or whatever... until you are an avatar busting your guts to purchase 1mv for 100b - admittedly you would probably have a few moves at this point!

In fact if done correctly, there should be no caps at all... due to economy of effort improving is ALWAYS possible but just almost at a stand still. Caps I think spoil the game, it doesn't reward hard working players, it makes everyone the same... just my opinion.

It would be a lot of analysis to totally restructure the avatar shop... it could be a can of worms, it could also be a saving grace for the longevity of the game. Hard to say. If you made the change, would the game still be "sloth"?

[Gorka]

Here is a sample of some of the work I did in s3 to try and calculate fair stat pricing...

I basically tried to break down every stat into a mana value, as mana is the "currency" of the game... it worked like this...

1 Mana Regen is 1.0 ma regen 1 Ma Regen Y

1 Mana Regen is 4.0 hp regen 4 Hp Regen Y 250 Restore / 62 Mana (Ma Regen is 4x Better Than HP Regen)

1 Mana Regen is 2.5 mv regen 3 Mv Regen Y 50 Moves / 20 Mana (Ma Regen is x Better Than MV Regen)

So breaking down the relative "mana value" of hp and move regen, I calculated that 1mr was 4x more powerful than a HP regen, and 2.5/3x more powerful than a move regen.

It's not an exact science... but it does provide important knowledge... in the fact it highlights how much more valuable mana regen is compared to hp regen proportionally.... somewhere between 1-4x.

It's always going to take some "human wisdom" after the numbers have been crunched to make sense of the results. Obviously the result to the avatar shop would be the price of hp regen should be a proportion of mana regen, each purchase could be scaled by a factor once the initial purchase price was set.

In a round about way, it's possible to break down every stat... into a mana value to do a calculation to gain the wisdom on relative values.

Interesting results came out of this, don't waste your money on heal bonus, buy mana... it's better... there were other things... my secrets...

[*juggleblood*]

Ok, you guys are right, it's probably not feasible for people to achieve much from the avatar shop at mid levels because of the huge numbers involved.

Gorka I agree that mana is valuable, but so is damage. The big thing about damage is that affects the size of the mob that you can splork in one or two hits, which is a huge factor in this game.

Oh and regarding nerfing any coliseum toys, I promise I'm not going to touch their stats or their rates, without an immortal consensus or without mentioning the changes on the crier. Personally from a mortal perspective, I'm really enjoying playing around with the potions. I like that there are constraints on their use, meaning that the shops can only buy so much, you are dependent on someone actively running the coliseum and selling stuff, and reboots/crashes clear them out. Same for the group heal scrolls. People tend to save them up and use them when there's a good group on, which makes for great gaming sessions, because when a group regens too much, the players lose focus and shit falls apart.

[Teron]

Gorka,
if you buy 1st stat for 500k, and 2nd stat for 620k, then the 11th stat will cost 500bil.
Just saying.

It's much more economical to multiply high-amount stats, like hps, by 1.03 or so, like it's done elsewhere.

Also, are you saying that current prices in the av shop were not built according to fight simulations?
I never really looked at them, because, I wasn't (and am not) a 9x40, but they better be, otherwise it's just...weird, isn't it?

[Gorka]

There is something wrong in your math T. 11th stat would be 3,095,868. In any case... it was just an example for a post, not a suggestion for an initial value or ratio.

Also, are you saying that current prices in the av shop were not built according to fight simulations?

Yeap, I don't have the most up to date listing from the avatar shop, but you only have to look at the website avatar shop page to see that the prices are not relational to there actual value or contribution to player power, they are "partially informed" guesses. When you break it down Heal bonus and Stab bonus are crazy expensive for what they are, among other things. Spell Damage is not so bad, obviously in a fight simulation, you use damage spells each round, while you may not need to heal each round... if you get my drift. Clearly in any case... spell damage should be more valuable than heal bonus. It's all over the shop in a "value for money" sense. I definately recommend trying to break down stats to mana/mana regen over a time frame to work out the economics, and buy the best performing stats first.

Using complex fight simulations, ratios, averaging results... it's even possible to compare unrelated things such as how many charisma's a undead control is worth... or how many stab dams are worth a mana regen... at least approximately.

[cyprimus]

From what i have seen i think the prices are already calculated well. Damage is always king on muds, at least the ones that are not pure rp..

I do however, think they should allow you to buy stuff to your classo cap. Cost is not relevant for this.

Remember, avvie shop purchases are not transferable, so, unlike eq, you cannot pass it to another alt.. etc..

I see the main benefit to the shop as, i can still play my max avvie and get progress on him, even if its slow.. at least i have a reason to keep login him in.

I would love to see something like the avvie shop for lower levels, but just do not think its workable in sloth, due to ppls overfocus on powergaming the system.

Its a game, i am here to enjoy my time, not be a damage munchkin...

I enjoy making efficient use of it, but, not as much as Taron... Maybe more than Zuzu...

Yeah, its a grind with little change for months at a time, and changes get really small in the end, but at least you can still change. Beats calling eq for years to get that extra .1 ac..

[Gorka]

From what i have seen i think the prices are already calculated well.

Sorry Cyp, but that's rubbish, spend a little time and work it out... I dare you, you'll be surprised

[*juggleblood*]

What pricing did you come up with after doing all this math?

Doesn't do any good to say the pricing is wrong unless you can say what it should be. Did I miss it somewhere?

[Gorka]

It doesn't calculate prices exactly JB... it calculates a ratio of how much something should cost compared to something else... consider the following example...

Lets say...

1 mana is 1 bill xp
1 move is 1 bill xp
1 hp is 1 bill xp.

Buying 62 mana can buy a restore... worth around 250hp
Buying 250 hp costs 4 times more to buy in the shop than 62 mana.
Therefore we can say if the price of mana is 1x, then the price of hp should be .25x.

Buying 20 mana can buy a greater refresh... worth around 50mvs
Buying 50 mvs costs 2.5 times more to buy in the shop than 20 mana.
Therefore we can say if the price of mana is 1x, then the price of mv should be .4x.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Some things are difficult to calculate... take a comparsion of undead control versus stab damage for instance...

You need to simulate multiple battles specifying pet damage and size with or without undead control, the number of rounds, damage taken to pets, damage... everything. Once you've calculated all that you can modify the effect of undead control by increasing it by 1 point, or increasing stab damage by one point.

You add up all the results and come up with undead control is worth x amount of stab damage...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It's a fair amount of work to calculate things. No one was interested when I did it in s3, so I never advanced it to the level it needed to be. But basically done correctly it could tell us what is the value of every stat compared to every other stat... the imms could then decide an initial value of what X is, and everything is calculated out fairly to an acceptable degree of accuracy when compared with each other. Although things may appear "round about right" at the moment... they aren't... work this through in your mind...

Compare buying 10 stab damage (40b), vs buying 25 mana (25b)...

10 stab damage = 20hp (lets say you land 2 stabs)
25 mana on a firewind is = 200hp (roughly)

40b = 20hp = 2b per hp
25b = 200hp = 0.125b per hp

Therefore buying mana is 16 times more efficient than buying stab damage.

Get it?

There is always going to be a margin of error.... but 16x? or 1600%? Is this acceptable? Players be warned!

[Ker]

Gorka,

Why don't you hit 9x40 first and tell the people on top the ratio's are "rubbish"?

There is nothing to work out. Like the old 5x40 system, majority players capped whatever they could. Nothing changed. Your assumptions are based on some calculation made on the premise that "mana" is currency, huh?

Caps were imposed on Avatar purchases long ago on S3 when Sa specifically decided to hoard/vault EXP tokens. Players like him will smoke 150'ish hps in a week, 150'ish mana the following week, 10 weapon_bonus etc and before you know it, he'd be running with 1.8k hps, 1k mana with capped heal bonus at max ac, max weap dam and so forth.

Previously, 5x40 Avatar Shops allowed max levelled players to burn experience points to enhance the said character / class however they see fit. Caps today are broken down into levels, class order, runes, in-game items, forged items, 3x40 items and drachma items. Today's 9x40 Avatar Shop actually requires you to buy according to your class to simply hit your cap. See the difference? This boils down to caps being raised yet again for players awhile ago, but no specification and leads/new concepts to gap these.

In an Admin's shoes, I'd be more than happy to implement the Avatar Shop for 5x40-7x40. What this translates is this: Let the mid tier players grind even more and decide for themselves on what they want. Even if ALL attribute's cost in experience points were halved, let the mid tier players soak up billions of exp, slack on levels and progress on their class. As if players were not leaving already due to the existing grind? Super counter-productive, drop the idea. The answer lies else where in reaching these gaps like the break down above, not this approach.

Coliseum was added into the game years on when Sloth saw close to 5-6 9x40's that year which is the most to date. By far, only the Coliseum had major influence in overlooking new char's made with so many class order varieties never seen before.

Old Sloth inception, PvE / Coliseum influence, PvP. Like Taron said, the Coliseum is and has been such a great impact on play styles to promote fun. Ride the wave, enjoy the game phase, reap rewards and move on.

The original idea of this thread will only put players like yourself suffer even more. Judging at how much easier it is to implement the Avatar shop instead of injecting other approaches into the breakdown, I say let the suffering begin.

Lel,

Dr

[Teron]

Yeah, it looks the shop will only be useful at 7-8x40.

If you want to solve the problem of not having eq, I've suggested an idea for a honor shop a while ago.

Essentially, there you can buy plain templates of eq, which are slightly worse, than the best in slot items for those levels. Then again, it'd plant a stake into the heart of eq groups even further (what's the last time you've seen an eq group? I don't even remember - 3-4 months ago?)

Also keep in mind, it's summertime atm, so there are even fewer people.

Then again, if you want to get more eq, lead eq groups

P.S. Yes, my math was way off, what was I thinking?

[Dragoth]

In an Admin's shoes, I'd be more than happy to implement the Avatar Shop for 5x40-7x40. What this translates is this: Let the mid tier players grind even more and decide for themselves on what they want. Even if ALL attribute's cost in experience points were halved, let the mid tier players soak up billions of exp, slack on levels and progress on their class. As if players were not leaving already due to the existing grind? Super counter-productive, drop the idea. The answer lies else where in reaching these gaps like the break down above, not this approach.

I somewhat disagree .

Not only is this not forced on you, but this gives you an option to expand your character beyond conventional means (leveling and eq). You can choose not to waste your time on buying these stats at all, but if we introduce this, at least you'll have the option, unlike now.

This brings us to the next point: giving the option to buy stats a 3x40 or below, imho it is absolutely pointless, because you gain much more by simply leveling or popping eq. That is why I proposed to place it at 5x40, it just makes sense to give this option to players later in the game, when they have already gotten most of their desired levels (both avatar and mortal) out of the way and have popped most of the eq that gave them the biggest boosts. I judge this from my own point of view, I've gotten one character to 6x40 and another to 7x40 and it just feels to me like I kind of peak around 5x40 and start to feel like i'm slowing down in my progress way too much and having another milestone at this level range would be welcome.

Ultimately of course, it doesn't matter at which level range you introduce avatar shop, you can introduce it at level 20, it all boils down to how much each stat costs. If you introduce a shop, it means you want people to buy something, that means that what that shop has, needs to be desirable, but how do you make a HP point desirable to me at level 20, when i get 5 hp points just from levelling, and the lower level I am, the faster I get these. So any stat point has a very different perceived cost at different points of players levelling life. To make something desirable to a low level person, you need to significantly reduce it's price, but sadly EXP is a very relative currency; if a hp point for level 9x40 costs 3 billion, how much should this HP point cost to level 3x40 ? Level 20 ? You can see that if we start discussing level ranges for avatar shop, it gets complicated really fast and the best solution is to not touch costs at all and this means that this pushes out the lower level brackets out of reach completely, there is absolutely no need to introduce avatar shop below 5x40 because the costs are too high.

Imho level 5x40 and above, is just about right to accept the current costs of the avatar shop and it's where these bonuses start to make sense as an alternative character advancement route.

[Ker]

Burp,

Even at 9x40 - I can assure you that the figures involved is disgusting enough for anyone NOT to start, and you're telling me 5x40 and above is acceptable? The bonus exp yield was to aid with leveling itself, which you got correct "character advancement route", but we are talking Billions of exp, not measly hundreds of millions which the pass and current players cannot even go through.

The Avatar Shop is for maxed level players to burn exp, not a matter of choice because we would have nothing else to do. Making it a choice for 5x40's, 6x40's, 7x40's and in fact 8x40's will be a mistake.

But hey, it doesn't affect me. If this crazy idea is what you guys think is best, and would work, I say let the pain and suffering come, to satisfy choice.

Yay!
Dr

[Dragoth]

You are saying it like it's a done deal, it probably won't happen regardless of what we talk about here, but in any case I don't see any way of how you could adapt the idea of avatar shop to low levels if you start messing with stat exp costs to make it bearable for "lowbies".
Not only will you upset all these avatars that have been paying a fixed rate of x billions of exp per stat for years, but calculating how much exp you want stats to cost at which level, or calculating it based off how many times you purchased that stat already is a monumental task which is bound to end in a failure. And I won't even talk about Gorkas proposal to completely change the cost structure to base everything off mana points or something, that is just nuts.

Lets not forget that it's a system that worked for years and my suggestion is to leave behind the grandiose desires of reworking the system to please everyone, that's not going to happen. But If you take the system as it is and introduce it slightly earlier than where it is now, to let us branch out our characters a bit earlier than it was possible before. Yes, it's not going to make waves and bring any serious changes that many people are hoping for, it will probably even be completely useless for many players who would rather spend exp on levels, but it might be of use to a few bored individuals, so why the heck not ?