Avatar Light Thread

[*juggleblood*]

I'm sorry. I didn't even realize players couldn't post to the New Stuff forum. That's why I deleted the other thread on Avatar Lights. I was expecting people to comment on the other thread. (duh) Very sorry bout that.

So I remade another thread under general chat.

Feel free to suggest changes to the lights. You guys know better than I what the players want to wear. I don't promise to make changes right away. Sometimes its better to let things stew a while before altering it.

Don't suggest max-stat. The primary reason is that this was my project with a limited goal. I have not been involved in the max-stat part of the game. My char has no max-stat eq. So I'm not going to try to make myself an expert for the sake of this project. That would be a completely separate undertaking that I'm not interested in at this time.

Thanks for input and once again sorry about the misunderstanding / removing the other thread. I should've realized at that time that you guys couldn't respond to my posts.

[Ker]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, are we still going to see some stat balance/change between the available held high forges as to compared with the ones introduced?

Now that stats contra with mob difficulty, duh?, this can happen too?

[*juggleblood*]

I just plan on acting on whatever good suggestions come from the players.

Tell me what lights are too easy to get and I'll make the mobs harder.

[alris]

I was going to post it when i seen all lights stats, but pyroskeleton and master john were stingy for me, so it goes without last 2.
Comments, thoughts, suggestions:

Nothin +shock. Almost nothing for warriors. Nothing for thieves. Almost all lights are geared toward mana, mana regen, spell or heal bonus, charisma, undead control.


orb of battle mage - 10Spellb 1Str 1Con - Archfiend - Arboretum I
// Seems to be great one, mages like it


ball of energy - 10SpellB 1Int 2MaR - mountain spirit - CK
//strange set of stats, cant think of where it can be useful


flawless sapphire - 5SpellB 3MaR - Elementalist - Ethereal Plane
/* pretty weak as it is, but i think it would be cool if it were from solo mob (5m or so) with novice avatar restrictions. Nut right now the mob is quite hard 40-50m one, not worth cycling. */


enchanted moonstone - 5SpellB 5HealB 3MaR - Grog - Valley of DaF
// imho this is very nice one for medium - low levels


moonlit diamond - 5SpellB 1Int 20Ma - Moondog - Ebony Tower
/* considering there are plenty of 10 spellbonus, its really weak, it probably doesnt need spellb or needs complete remake */


pearl of rhapsody - 10SpellB 1Cha 10Ma - Baal, forge - Eden
// same, with too many spellbonus lights this looks pretty weak


sapphire gem of perfection - 10SpellB 4MaR - mother scorpion - CK - Mage Prime
/* while cleric type of gem loads on 100m mob, this one loads on 8m mob? mages have it pretty easy. It also makes all the other spellbonus lights, except for orb, useless for mages */


diamond compassion - 10Healb 3MaR - Forest Guardian - Greek Forest
// it was great until i seen emerald gem stats


flawless diamond - 5HealB 3MaR - Cthulhu - Neg Plane
/* while diamond of compassion loads of 50m mob, this one loads from 250m mob, doesnt really make sense that mob is easier than other one. Same as mage one, would be cool if it was from solo mob, with low restrictions */


lamp of learned healer - 10HealB 1Int 10Ma - dwarven prince forge - Olympus
/* another healbonus with pretty random stats, why its forge doesnt make much sense too. */


emerald gem of perfection - 10HealB 4MaR - Mother ROnnie - The Moon Temple - Prime Cleric
/* I like 4mr stat, but why it was made into prime only? jeez, with so many healbonus and spellbonus lights, it does not even need heal/spellbonus. I dont need it on those lights. Why clerics and mages are only ones to get 4mr light? */
/* So just my suggestion to make one more light with 4mr, no other stats, no prime restrictions. */


radiant crystal - 25Ma 2MaR - Mandiblaton - The Maw
/* I liked it before i seen chaos gem. might still be saved if chaos gem is high avatar restricted and this one low */


chaos gem - 1Int 30Ma 3MaR - chaos elemental - Ogres
/* As a top mana item it probably doesnt need 3mr, it throws off balance a bit too much. Also mob can be boosted quite a lot */


sphere of lava - 15Ma 3MaR - fire machine - Underdark
/* Better than avian claw forge, and just a normal pop, but its probably ok as drop rates on this one are not great. Might as well increase pops on avian claw cps too? */


enchanted black diamond - 1UC 1Int 10Ma - Devourer - Kara'Sa
onyx blacklight - 1UC 1Con 10Hp 2HpR - Medesta - Crypt
piece of eight - 1UC 1Str 4HpR - Cicero's chimera - Cicero Prison
/* For uc item you only need uc itself, low rent and sometimes low weigh. From this point all the 3 lights are same and if consider ingame adept necro easy pop light, those are crap. Who would cycle 50m mob to pop the same thing you can get from easy mob? Those 3 lights are really bad. */


radiant eye sceptre - 1Cha 3MaR - Gnoph-Keh - Mordin
drop of golden sun - 1Cha 1Wis 1MaR - Amaterasu - Pagoda
orb of mesmerization - 2Cha 1MaR - Lazaren - Desert
/* Cant comment on charisma as i dont use it at all. Think its same for most of us for non prime bards, song either works or not, charisma changes too little there. */

demon eye sceptre - 3UC - Taraka - Hellwell
// great one, Taraka can use some boost up for loading it


sphere of mist - 2Con 30Hp 4HpR - Galeb Duhr - Griffons Forest
// Not many would use it, but its pretty good light.


gem of learning - 2Int 2Wis - Mordien Kanien - Web of Lolth
neptune's eye - 2Wis 1Int 2HpR - Merman - Kuo Toans
eye of dragon savant - 1Int 20Ma 1MaR - white dragon - Draconian Lair
lightning sceptre - 2HealB 2SpellB 1Int 1Wis - Ogoun - Dark Covenant
glowing bloodstone - 1Str 2MaR - Craw Wurm - Kjel Citadel
// 5 lights with stats very weak. not worth anything

evil eye sceptre - ? - Pyroskeleton - Sub Palace
emerald of mercy - ? - Master John - Tarot Manor


Other suggesstions:

Something with +shock

Something with hitroll, thought this works better as extra, not main focus of one light item.

Some thief type lights:
1. with stabdamage, circledamage as weaker, but non-forge alternative for ryui.
2. ryui upgrade, high avatar restrictions, forge with ryui itself as one of cps.
any mvregen would make a good extra for solid stats light, and not only thievish one!

Something warrior type:
there is novice avatar .1AC light, how about high avatar upgraded version of that?
if not .2AC, then maybe .1AC +15 hp

Something druidish:
Shiftable light with resists maybe? i m not sure if its any good though.

Nothing monkish - they have aura of pride, shoo!
though maybe some variations of 1handdam light might work.

[alris]

Not a very serious idea of change for cool chaos gem name:
How about make it pick stats randomly when it loads from all the items, which could be used as light (including temp, statsless junk and elite items - for elite item to load chance would be nil anyway, but even close zero probability would make anyones blood boil ) ? and current chaos gem stats could be moved to mandiblatons crystal.

[Magi]

Re: warriors

2-3 weapondam light would be sweet. Also useful for everyone else (except monks) that enjoy things dying.

Re: druids

A high level shiftable light seems very reasonable, I think the only shiftable light in the game pops on valk. Perhaps with mana regen, +2 hit, and perma darksight (since I can't suggest max str!).

Re: Undead control

Taraka's light is awesome. Totally agree with Alris that stats are wasted on undead control gear; you wear it for about 4 seconds while summoning, and then immediately remove it. You might consider repurposing the minor undead control lights by removing +UC and coming up with a new reason for them to exist. They've got cool names. Alternately, make one of them +2 UC and give it lower rent than the expensive beating heart of king glarglrm.

Re: EQ with random junk stat bonuses

Am I alone in thinking that most avatars have good stats? When I see +stat on any eq, I wonder what useful thing it could have had instead. Other random minor stuff to throw in is hp, sys shock, to hit, resists, perma sneak, and perma spells (wb, fly, detect invis, darksight, rejuvenation, greater mobility)

Re: Monk

Yes, Aura of Pride trumps everything here. But how many monks actually have it? 2x bracer of the dark order and a shield of black ice aren't cheap! Plus, if you ever hit 9x40 you'll have wasted 850 drachma. A +1 handdam +1 to hit light would help tide over those who don't have enough drachma to spend on the arguably worst piece of monk damage eq

Re: Bard

A light (or an instrument if prime only is desired) that played itself would be epic! It should only affect the wielder or else it'd be too strong, but a permanent minor song like march of the heroes, brothers in valor, ogham's psalm, or lion chorus would be a really fun item. Those spells are practically free to sing or play, but the convenience factor is big. It could be 'a glowing music box' or 'wind chimes' or whatever.

[Ker]

Agreed with all above.

Dr

[Oboe]

Juggleblood, I appreciate your willingness to put effort into the MUD's areas, equipment and quests. However, this is simply far too much equipment quality to add at one time and mostly as pops, not forges. The degree of increase exceeds all other combined equipment improvements made since SlothMUD replaced SlothMUD III.

To illustrate, Oboe would use these:
chaos gem - 1Int 30Ma 3MaR - chaos elemental - Ogres
sphere of mist - 2Con 30Hp 4HpR - Galeb Duhr - Griffons Forest
diamond compassion - 10Healb 3MaR - Forest Guardian - Greek Forest
orb of mesmerization - 2Cha 1MaR - Lazaren - Desert
demon eye sceptre - 3UC - Taraka - Hellwell

In the absence of chaos gem, eye of the dragon savant would be on the list; without eye, I would use moonlit diamond. If chaos gem were +3mr +18ma +1int, it would still justify a forge as laborious as Tanzanite of Omah. If sphere of mist were +30hp -2mr, I would still use it. That's five new top-tier items for Oboe, all plain pops, plus other items that would have been top-tier if not added concurrently with better items. Several new pops crush graygem-shard-forge and claw-avian-forge. This collectively steamrolls precedent concerning equipment additions.

If it were up to me, I'd withdraw all of these changes and return to the drawing board with an eye toward a sober collection of new equipment. The points my esteemed colleagues have made will be useful during such an effort, excepting that I like +stat bonuses on items. Avatars do have decent stats, but most have some stat 15 or lower. On a lighter note, I'm happy to see pops on Taraka, chaos elemental and merman gatesman; they have long deserved to pop something. I believe chaos gem would make a reasonable addition if it were a forge having this component list:

1x arkenstone replica
1x black janus mask
1x ethereal shield of shadows
1x eye of the deep
1x hook-nailed avian claw
1x moonstone claws of midnight
1x quartz crystal gem
1x sapphire sceptre
1x silk-embroidered handkerchief
1x silver dragon amulet
1x skull shaped ring
1x staff of the ram
1x symbol of darkness
1x thin crystal circlet

That's about 16 tough mobs to cycle, along with smaller cycle targets and miscellaneous challenges, for net +1int +17ma compared to the best competitor item predating this change.

[Marvel]

I will only comment on the bard lights. Given that there um, isn't a bard light for lower levels... but that's aside the point.

All bards want max charisma when it won't cost them ac (so light + charisma is a great thing... but avatar lights should have huge charisma so you have room to put in some lights for smaller bards). Max charisma cap before the caps were boosted was 20 as far as I'm aware. Dazzle adds +2 max_charisma and there's some drachma eq that adds max_charisma, but most bards still have to trade a little bit of ac to get charisma.

Most bards fall into one of three camps (mock me as needed):

Bards that need +WIS
Bards that need +STR
Bards that need AC

There's a reason why there's usually a +int and +wis version of each bard item (like the drachma rings) - because of the stat orders for bards. Ba/Ne rolls wis 4th, but Ba/Dr rolls int 3rd. And somehow, the poor Ba/(Wa/Th) rolls wis 5th.

Since the Bard is going to be standing and getting whacked, we all want some AC. We also like mregen (everybody does).

Josiah's idea of a permanent personal song would be a vast improvement though. You can easily make that light bard prime only. In general - I love the names of the bard lights (the ones with charisma), but would like to see a huge charisma light as well. You need to leave some room for items below 4x40... meaning the avatar lights either need to be more than +1 cha or stupid good. I'm not sure I would call radiant eye sceptre stupid good, but it's close. But in any case, like Alris said - most non-prime bards don't tend to use charisma. You'd have to hunt down someone like Stun, but I don't think he uses charisma items either.

Maybe Oboe will weigh in... and Blackmore too.

[*Splork*]

I see no issue with most of these items being single item pops. A pop with high restrictions should be better than a 3x40 or 4x40 forge( especially when you consider that this was the highest level in the last version ), at least in my opinion.

Should some of them be forges? Sure, a few probably should be but adding 30 items at one time was a huge undertaking.

This also leaves us room to add better lights through the use of forges... This was one area where we seriously lacked items and Juggle has addressed the issue. Hopefully, we can continue to tinker, change, and add some items and things will work out.

We have been being extra cautious with the max_stat eq but are trying to continually add more.

[*juggleblood*]

@Oboe

I don't see any problem with introducing a number of items at a time and then adjusting them to see what works and what doesn't and adjusting the mobs according to player input.

I could have sat down for six months and analysed each item and the consequences for each class and balance out the difficulty of each pop location according to the subjective value of the item and the subjective difficulty of the mob.

But then, I would have accomplished nothing else.

I think this thread is proof that my concept is sound. I put in a dozen hours or so work into improving the lights available to avatar players (a limited and achievable goal). The players then took time to pop the items, judge which were valuable, which were not and submitted suggestions as to the location of the pops, the difficulty of the mobs, and the equipment stats.

So I reject the notion that I should have never done this and should go back to the starting board.

I don't mind making any changes to the lights. It will take time to digest all this input and come up with something amenable to you guys.

I think the input is awesome. The only thoughts I have to contribute right now are:

Is plus hitroll advantageous to avatars? I think that after you reach a certain number of levels, your natural hit is so good that adding +hit to items is silly. Am I incorrect?

Someone suggested adding some spell_saves to some of the lights. I thought this was a great idea. I forgot that spell saves affects the mobs saves as well as the players, so this is a very nice thing to have.

Someone suggested adding raise points, but I've never been a huge fan. Do many people even maintain raise gear? Would it be best to have a raise light that people put on just to raise? or would it be nice to have a middle of the road stats light with some raise on it?

People point out that UC +stats is silly because the necro takes it off after using. What if the +UC was on a light that was already nice to wear? Just as a perk? Or is that dum?


As far as the difficulty of the mobs, I'm willing to make changes but I really don't care one bit if one item is solo, but a better item requires a group. I just dont care. The game doesn't have to be completely homogenous. One mob can be easier than another and they can pop different eq. It's a non-issue. You can suggest changes and I will implement them, but I'm not going to waste my time over-thinking it.

Thanks again for all the input. Be patient for changes because it's a complicated discussion and we don't want to rush it.

[war]

My suggestion for Avatar Light is kind a self serving but here goes
held high dex -.1 ac
for me it was aval I wouldn't care if was a 30 item forge that cost 10-15m

or held high dex 20 hps

Just my 2 cents

[Marvel]

In response to raise gear... well, +sysshock works for the person getting raised as well. Warriors do tend to die a lot. And if it's on a light, they wouldn't be losing ac to marginally increase their chance of being raised.

[alris]

re: AC
"And if it's on a light, they wouldn't be losing ac". Please don't say such a misleading things. THERE IS an .1AC light in the game. It is not temp and it is not drachma. Like a ryui its restricted low avatar, and getting high level alternatives/upgrades for those two would be very welcome.

re: +shock
I would wear +shock light only for few seconds to raise someone, in my raise deads set, but there are plenty of people who make the set, so, my guess, it will be still quite popular.
`Carbo greaves looking quite good with the shock, right? As an extra for solid light it wont be bad.
On side note: there is no +1shock belt in the game, only +shock waist is cleric prime and it goes straight for +2(or 3, not sure).

re: spell saves:
Yes, there are those good bonuses.
How about making prime mage perfection gem 10spellbonus -3saves? Would fit the name pretty well i think and make intresting alternative for orb of battle mage for casters with good stats.
And the prime cleric one 10healbonus +3shock then?

re: +Stats
Stats are good, but to go along with something - like int goes pretty well with mana or mana regen, but for tank set, it would probably be discarded for hps or con.
For regen light base would be 3mr, and then stats like con/wis/int. i think we already have +1 Con/Wis/Int variations, so maybe avatar +2 versions of those needed.
2Con 30hp light is pretty good as light aimed for tanks/soloing, alternative of 2Dex 30hps might work as well.

re: hitroll
For melee innate hitroll is good enough as it is, but many of us still use grip/stab sometimes, and it is where hitroll gets good. So it wont be useful on light with main focus on MaR or mana, but might fit pretty well on light stabdamage, damage or those hps one suggested.

re: undead control
If there was solid base light with +1 uc as extra, and i wished those base stats, I would probably first check the other items with the same base and no UC, but some other bonus. Effect of 1UC is so small, that you either discard it and make undeads without uc or collect full set to see significant change in undeads. So it would serve as an extra, but meaning will be lower than any other kind of extra. (example - between light +1Dam +1Uc and +1Dam +10Hp second is better i think).
The names for the 1UC lights are cool, but why not to remake it completely in new items? a lot of suggestions already on air

re: chaos gem
Someone said it wont be nerfed. PLEASE, nerf it! Or tone it down at least.
As it is now, it just renders crap all the 3mr lights which existed before those new lights as well as few new lights too. If it were 30ma 1or2Mr 1Int plenty of us would still use it, but the 3MaR lights would regen a lot of lost value.

[*juggleblood*]

"As it is now, it just renders <obsolete> all the 3mr lights which existed before those new lights as well as few new lights too. "

It was intended to be better than old lights. It has a higher restriction. Specifically which items are you concerned about becoming obsolete?

Why are you concerned that an item restricted 25 avatar supersedes an item restricted 3x40? I'm sorry, but I'm missing something here. I'm not seeing the problem.

I see hook-nailed avian claw at 3x40 at 3mr and 13ma. What else? Please specifically list the items that have now become obsolete with their restrictions.

"The names for the 1UC lights are cool, but why not to remake it completely in new items?" "Why not"? ....how about "Why?" Why not is what people say when they don't have good reasons for something.