Avatar bonuses list

[Cizin]

************************** Primary Stats (cumulative) **************************

+1 strength - 5 experience tokens, and 15000000 coins.
+1 intelligence - 5 experience tokens, and 15000000 coins.
+1 wisdom - 5 experience tokens, and 15000000 coins.
+1 constitution - 5 experience tokens, and 15000000 coins.

************************* Secondary Stats (cumulative) ************************

Bought -> Nothing

+5 hitpoints - 3 experience tokens, and 5000000 coins.
+5 mana - 3 experience tokens, and 5000000 coins.
+5 moves - 3 experience tokens, and 5000000 coins.


Bought -> Nothing

+5 stab damage - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
+5 circle damage - 3 experience tokens, and 5000000 coins.
+3 weapon damage - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
+1 hand damage - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
+1 damage reduction - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
+5 spell damage - 6 experience tokens, and 15000000 coins.
+5 heal bonus - 6 experience tokens, and 15000000 coins.
+1 undead control - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
+3 charisma - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
+10 resist fire - 3 experience tokens, and 6000000 coins.
+10 resist cold - 3 experience tokens, and 6000000 coins.

************************** Permanent Spells & Skills ***************************
Bought -> Nothing

detect invisible - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
detect magic - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
detect evil - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
detect good - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
sense life - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
infravision - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
darksight - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
mindbar - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
undead visage - 3 experience tokens, and 5000000 coins.
protection from evil - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
elemental resistance - 5 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.
fly - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
sneak - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
hide - 2 experience tokens, and 2000000 coins.
stalk - 3 experience tokens, and 10000000 coins.

********************************************************************************

[jezer]

First of all congratulations Cizin.

I posted this post over a year ago... viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3523&hilit=heal+bonus

Attached to this post is a spreadsheet document which seeks to make sure in s4, the costs on the avatar menu are more "equivalent" with each other than in the previous versions of sloth.

To achieve this, the avatar menu was broken down in to three different comparable token costs, represented as X, Y and Z. I have not suggested a cost for these tokens, as I did not want to start a "small mans argument" about token costs when I really wanted to get my point across about fair and equivalent values (Call it communist tokens!). In the old sloth 5 mana cost the same as 5 moves. This was silly, as 4 x 5 mana is the equivalent of 50 moves. Clearly no one had tried to calculate the true cost of Spell Bonus and Heal Bonus and make sure the costs were anything close to being equivalent to the other things you could buy.

Now in order to achieve this task I had to invent a pseudo "Battle Scenario" and use some rough numbers from that scenario to break things down into how beneficial they are... The numbers work to the scenario in some cases... so if the scenario changes some of the values will to. Here is the results. It's not perfect, but it's approximate.

Open the attached link. Hopefully this will get the ball rolling.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... y=CMuNlYsH

To Summarise the findings...

X = The cost of 5 Circle/Kick/Flail/Spell dam.
X/4 = 5 Stab Dam
2X = 1 Hand Dam or Weapon Dam
2X+ = 1 Dam

Y = The cost of 1 Mana Regen
Y = The cost of 4 HP Regen
Y = The cost of 3 MV Regen

Z = The cost of 5 Mana
Z = The cost of 20 HP
Z = The cost of 12 MV
4Z = 5 Heal Bonus
2Z = 1 Dam Reduct

Stat Point cost > Y
Max Stat Point cost > Stat Point Cost
Perm Spells are roughly Spell Duration and Mana Cost then Refer to Mana Regen Costings. (Add Extra Cost base, on Spells Being Infinite Duration)

[jezer]

To state the obvious dexterity is missing from the core stats part of the shop.

Why you get 3 weapon dam for the price of 1 hand dam I have no idea.

What happened to Max Stat.

Who is going to buy fly when you have that stupid bob up and down message in various parts of the mud.

It's a bit disappointing to see that no immortal spent decent time on improving this menu after Cizin spent the best part of 3 years to get there.

If there aren't changes to this menu, I will produce a list for everyone showing you the "economic order" for buying things. Some of these things are clearly a rip off compared to other items on the menu still.

[Cizin]

Dexterity is not shown because i have already maxed it (18). All my other nat stats are < 18 and therefore shown on the list.

As for the shop inventory - no comment .)

[jezer]

I was thinking why dex was not shown on the menu while taking a drink, and I choked on it when I realised you must have had 18 dex and was coming back to change my post when I saw you had bet me to it!

You kept a roll with only one 18? Interesting. Mind due I kept a roll with none

It will be interesting when you buy stuff to see if it tells you, you have purchased 5/50 mana. (ie, show the caps)

[*Splork*]

This list is not accurate and we are sorry that we once again disappointed you Jezer.

We will spend time this week on the avatar shop,avatar items and work out what the shop looks like. Most of the time we have had has gone to making sure our game runs smoothly and without issues.

Splork

Please feel free to provide suggested price changes to stats and old/new options. This might speed up the process. I am working on removing tokens from having to be used and replace it with experience, as the 2 billion limit has been removed.

[Cizin]

Here is my suggestion:

Avatar spell / skill / stats shop:

+1 strength - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (current_skill/18)
+1 intelligence - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (current_skill/18)
+1 wisdom - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (current_skill/18)
+1 dexerity - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (current_skill/18)
+1 constitution - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (current_skill/18)

+1 max_str - 20.000.000.000 experience and 20.000.000 coins. (0/1) , nat_skill=18
+1 max_int - 20.000.000.000 experience and 20.000.000 coins. (0/1) , nat_skill=18
+1 max_wis - 20.000.000.000 experience and 20.000.000 coins. (0/1) , nat_skill=18
+1 max_dex - 20.000.000.000 experience and 20.000.000 coins. (0/1) , nat_skill=18
+1 max_con - 20.000.000.000 experience and 20.000.000 coins. (0/1) , nat_skill=18

or

+1 max_prim_skill - 20.000.000.000 experience and 20.000.000 coins. (0/max_stat) , nat_skill=18


+1 hitpoint - 1.000.000.000 experience and 1.000.000 coins. (0/200)
+1 mana - 1.000.000.000 experience and 1.000.000 coins. (0/200)
+1 move - 250.000.000 experience and 250.000 coins. (0/200)


+1 stab damage - 1.000.000.000 experience and 1.000.000 coins. (0/50)
+1 circle damage - 500.000.000 experience and 500.000 coins. (0/50)
+1 weapon damage - 2.500.000.000 experience and 2.500.000 coins. (0/10)
+1 hand damage - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (0/3)
+1 damage - 15.000.000.000 experience and 15.000.000 coins. (0/2)
+1 damage reduction - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (0/5)
+1 spell damage - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins. (0/25)
+1 heal bonus - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins. (0/25)
+1 mana regen - 15.000.000.000 experience and 15.000.000 coins. (0/5)
+1 hp regen - 2.500.000.000 experience and 2.500.000 coins. (0/25)
+1 move regen - 2.500.000.000 experience and 2.500.000 coins. (0/25)
+1 undead control - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins. (0/3)
+1 charisma - 2.500.000.000 experience and 2.500.000 coins. (0/3)
+1 resist fire - 500.000.000 experience and 500.000 coins. (0/50)
+1 resist cold - 500.000.000 experience and 500.000 coins. (0/50)


detect invisible - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
detect magic - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
detect evil - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
detect good - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
sense life - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
infravision - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
darksight - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
mindbar - 2.000.000.000 experience and 2.000.000 coins.
undead visage - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.
protection from evil - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.
elemental resistance - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.
fly - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.
sneak - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.
hide - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.
stalk - 5.000.000.000 experience and 5.000.000 coins.

Avatar shadow (Aegis/dcloak) - 25.000.000.000 experience and 25.000.000 coins.
Avatar sight - 10.000.000.000 experience and 10.000.000 coins.

[jezer]

I like the general direction Cizin is headed down.

Maybe buying max stat should be according to your class order. So a druid could buy more MAX_WIS than he could MAX_STR for instance.

I don't understand why weapon damage is so damn cheap. In my opinion it's the equivalent of Hand Damage. The grip multiplier benefit is fairly negligible - I suspect weapon and hand dam add to things like broadside and strike the same way. Why is weapon damage always so high also on equipment? Not to mention monks don't use weapons which add to dam and hit. I'm not sure +dam needs to be added with all the other dams. In my opinion weapon dam and hand dam are mostly equiv.

Kick, Flail, Stab, Circle should be cheap but fairly quickly capped. As I understand it, +1 is -1hp to the enemy mob.

Don't overprice Spell damage and Heal Bonus... as I worked out in the spreadsheet above, in terms of economy, they have nearly always been overpriced for what they are.

I'd like to buy +hit and a few ac points.

I'd like to buy an avatar skill which forgoes the need for eating and drinking. Avatar sustain or something. Very useful for druids. Just cuts out an annoyance, which we all automate which adds little to the game. Avatars should also be able to trade experience for drachma. Obviously most will not do this until the very end of "buying stuff." What about trading XP for Housing Editions?

Don't over price things... if there are so many things to buy, at all different caps you will still need trillions of xp. It's also important that avatar's grow there power at a linear rate, which will curb the boredom factor of 10billion till +5 moves. 10 billion for 5 moves is just not a rate of improvement to keep an avatar playing. So lots more candy, at lower prices at maybe lower caps. Tempt the avatar to waste 20 billion on extra mana instead of 25 billion for Avatar Shadow. Adding HP, MV, MA points should be an experience like levelling cheapest.

Can I suggest when you come up with the ideas you put them on the forum for one more final round of discussions before you close off to "new changes." This is VERY important, it will decide whether avatar's which is half the player base continue playing there characters or not. At the end of the day make the decision as a team of immortals, but please give us the chance to point out things that are not right if we provide evidence.

[Atwell]

I like the general direction Cizin is headed down.

Likewise. I like the idea of selling things in the smallest unit -- 1hp for roughly <old_price>/N rather than selling groups of 5hp.

I don't understand why weapon damage is so damn cheap. In my opinion it's the equivalent of Hand Damage. The grip multiplier benefit is fairly negligible - I suspect weapon and hand dam add to things like broadside and strike the same way.

That's hard to believe. SlothMUD III monks did real exp runs using deathgrip and deathtouch. Before the hand damage equipment reductions, they were competitive with thieves. Nobody developed a notable exp run around massive weapon damage and leading with "kill". Also, strike is useful while broadside is not.

That said, weapon damage was quite a bargain in SlothMUD III. If admin had not capped purchases thereof, I would have spent my tokens on nothing else. Cizin's proposal drops the price from 3.3B exp/wdam to 2.5B exp/wdam. I'd probably raise it to 4B exp/wdam instead.

Don't over price things... if there are so many things to buy, at all different caps you will still need trillions of xp. It's also important that avatar's grow there power at a linear rate, which will curb the boredom factor of 10billion till +5 moves. 10 billion for 5 moves is just not a rate of improvement to keep an avatar playing. So lots more candy, at lower prices at maybe lower caps. Tempt the avatar to waste 20 billion on extra mana instead of 25 billion for Avatar Shadow. Adding HP, MV, MA points should be an experience like levelling cheapest.

I think I agree with yours goals, but I'd suggest a completely different mechanism: don't cap anything, but scale the prices: define for each product a % by which the cost increases after each purchase. Say you make 1hp cost 1000M, increasing by 0.2% each time. The second 1hp costs 1002M, the 100th costs 1221M, and the 200th costs 1491M. The rising costs will eventually drive down the value of incremental purchases, motivating players to consider other purchases. This gives players more credible options at each juncture: instead of just buying the best-value offer until it caps, you need to actually decide precisely when that item ceases to be best. It would take a fair amount of work to define the right percentages for each item; I'm willing to help with that if desired.

I have not attempted a quantitative analysis on the relative game value of the offers and whether Cizin's prices line up. One price that stands out as excessive is 10B for 1 undead control. (I realize that price is just copied from the old price list.) I'd throw out 1.5B as a price for undead control.

Another thing to note is that several of these permanent spells vary in value radically depending on whether they are masterful or not. In particular, a non-masterful permanent 'fly' would be a never-buy; a masterful 'fly' would be worth considering. A non-masterful undead visage would forever foreclose your ability to cast 'glamour', whereas a masterful one would not. Offhand I think all purchased permanent spells should be masterful. In any case, the shop should explicitly say whether each one is or is not masterful.

[jezer]

I think I agree with yours goals, but I'd suggest a completely different mechanism: don't cap anything, but scale the prices: define for each product a % by which the cost increases after each purchase. Say you make 1hp cost 1000M, increasing by 0.2% each time. The second 1hp costs 1002M, the 100th costs 1221M, and the 200th costs 1491M. The rising costs will eventually drive down the value of incremental purchases, motivating players to consider other purchases. This gives players more credible options at each juncture: instead of just buying the best-value offer until it caps, you need to actually decide precisely when that item ceases to be best. It would take a fair amount of work to define the right percentages for each item; I'm willing to help with that if desired.

I like this idea. Although I do think some things need to be capped, stats for instance.

[Atwell]

I like this idea. Although I do think some things need to be capped, stats for instance.

To clarify, I'm not proposing that purchases override any other kinds of caps that exist, merely that the avatar shop itself not impose caps. So yes, if you have nat 18 con, buying it again will not help you; no need for that to change. (Actually, buying a +1con bonus would not be completely pointless. It would let you keep 18 even when disintegrated. I don't think anyone would bother, but there's no need to forbid it really.)

[Cizin]

New list:

Natural primary stats -> Str[17], Int[14], Wis[14], Dex[18], Con[17]

+1 strength - 10,000,000,000 experience and 10,000,000 coins
+1 intelligence - 10,000,000,000 experience and 10,000,000 coins
+1 wisdom - 10,000,000,000 experience and 10,000,000 coins
+1 constitution - 10,000,000,000 experience and 10,000,000 coins
+1 max_dexterity - 20,000,000,000 experience and 20,000,000 coins

*** Secondary Stats (cumulative) ************************************************************

-0.1 ac - 0 of 3 - 30,000,000,000 experience and 30,000,000 coins
+1 damroll - 0 of 3 - 20,000,000,000 experience and 20,000,000 coins
+1 hitroll - 0 of 3 - 15,000,000,000 experience and 15,000,000 coins
+1 hitpoints - 0 of 100 - 1,000,000,000 experience and 1,000,000 coins
+1 mana - 0 of 100 - 1,000,000,000 experience and 1,000,000 coins
+1 moves - 0 of 100 - 1,000,000,000 experience and 1,000,000 coins

+1 undead control - 0 of 5 - 8,000,000,000 experience and 8,000,000 coins
+1 damage reduction - 0 of 5 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
+1 hand damage - 0 of 10 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
+1 weapon damage - 0 of 10 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
+1 circle damage - 0 of 10 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
+1 heal bonus - 0 of 25 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
+1 spell damage - 0 of 25 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
+1 stab damage - 0 of 10 - 2,000,000,000 experience and 2,000,000 coins
+1 charisma - 0 of 5 - 1,000,000,000 experience and 1,000,000 coins
+1 flail damage - 10 of 10 - Maximum Purchased
+10 resist cold - 0 of 40 - 1,000,000,000 experience and 1,000,000 coins
+10 resist fire - 0 of 40 - 1,000,000,000 experience and 1,000,000 coins

*** Permanent Spells & Skills ***************************************************************
*** Permanent Spells & Skills ***************************************************************
avatar shadow - 1 of 1 - Maximum Purchased
avatar sight - 0 of 1 - 25,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
elemental resistance - 0 of 1 - 6,000,000,000 experience and 6,000,000 coins
hide - 0 of 1 - 6,000,000,000 experience and 6,000,000 coins
sneak - 0 of 1 - 6,000,000,000 experience and 6,000,000 coins
stalk - 0 of 1 - 6,000,000,000 experience and 6,000,000 coins
darksight - 0 of 1 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
detect invisible - 0 of 1 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
infravision - 0 of 1 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
sense life - 0 of 1 - 5,000,000,000 experience and 5,000,000 coins
detect evil - 0 of 1 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
detect good - 0 of 1 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
detect magic - 0 of 1 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
mindbar - 0 of 1 - 3,000,000,000 experience and 3,000,000 coins
fly - 0 of 1 - 2,000,000,000 experience and 2,000,000 coins
protection from evil - 0 of 1 - 2,000,000,000 experience and 2,000,000 coins

*** Avatar Light ****************************************************************************
3 of 3 Selections Remaining.

+1 avatar light dam - 0 of 2
+1 avatar light strength - 0 of 2
+1 avatar light intelligence - 0 of 2
+1 avatar light wisdom - 0 of 2
+1 avatar light dexterity - 0 of 2
+1 avatar light constitution - 0 of 2
+25 avatar light hp - 0 of 50
+4 avatar light hp regen - 0 of 4
+25 avatar light ma - 0 of 50
+5 avatar light ma regen - 0 of 5
+25 avatar light mv - 0 of 50
+4 avatar light mv regen - 0 of 4
-0.2 avatar light ac - 0 of 4
+1 avatar light fly - 0 of 1

[Tigris]

First thanks for the all the hard work by all the immortals, running quests, building areas, and generally just keeping this game going for 20 years. Not that I'll get high enough to use this list but one thing jumps out at a casual glance. Why would anyone buy perm sneak or perm hide when they can buy perm stalk for the same price.

Perhaps I'm missing something just thought I should point it out

[*Splork*]

Ive received several inquiries upon whether or not affects bought from the Avatar shop bypass a player's cap. Nothing, currently in the shop, will increase or bypass a player's cap of that affect. What it does allow a player to do, is use different equipment because they no longer need the affects which are bought.

Eventually, we may add some extra things that my do this, but currently, this is an urban legend. This most likely originates from the fact most elite equipment which had/has bonus_damage_reduction and this affect does indeed bypass the caps of a player's damage reduction.

Splork

[*Splork*]

We have increased the price of Max Dex, as this gives .5 ac to the player. Currently, AC is listed at 30 bil for .1 ac each. And you are able to buy 3 of them for a total of .3. Max Dex has been increased to 50 Bil, which is a rate of 10 bil per point of AC which is still an incredible deal, nearly 66% off original AC price.

Sorry for the news,
Splork