Thinking!

[*Chobbs*]

Mornin' folks,

As I was contemplating my next Sloth project, I asked myself: What makes Sloth "fun"? What can I do to make it funner?

Is it the autoquests, in all their cheat-sheet glory?
Maybe it's the large scale quests?
Perhaps it's exploring new areas, discovering what no one else has before?
More followers, pets, and skills mayhaps?
The challenge?
The shoop-shaped cookies?
The grinding?
Getting more items?
The people? (not much more I can do about that; I'm already too awesome as it is)

A combination of the above, while probably true, is not extraordinarily helpful.

So to help determine what project I should tackle next, I ask you all:
What makes Sloth fun for you so I have an idea of what to work on? Or perhaps I should ask, why do you keep logging back in so my mobs can repop empty? (You can't reply "to afk"! That's my answer!)

/afk
Chobbs

[jezer]

I had so many sarcastic replies that would be censored

How about improving the epic system a little or giving it another dimension. Dynamic epic quests... kill %mob, brew %potion (for honor) etc

Fixing the information in the help system wouldn't go a miss either. It's not fun to find it's outdated.

What ever happened to putting more drachma in, druid pets, and the map thing Isabo had running for 3 weeks?

[*Chobbs*]

Mornin' Jezer,

Clearly my appeal to better understand and seek advice from the playerbase which I spend so many hours trying to appease is worthy of sarcasm and scorn. By all means, reply sarcastically, for I carry such weight in your flippant remarks.

- Honestly, I'm not really a fan of the honor system (good concept, but no real impactful nor interesting choice in it), but I will consider adding new mobs, maybe rework some aspects, quests, &c.

- Nod. Help system updates would be good, but are quite tedious to write. Also I don't really have access to the mechanism to do so. Clearly the thing that draws you to Sloth are the help files, so I will see what I can do.

- More drachma already got put in months ago. Think I added three quests for that, and another minor vk quest for a piece of lowbie eq. More in the works, but needed time to think of more creative ideas instead of your rote "cycle for this cp" a billion times over.

- Awaken creatures re-evaluated, complications with the code, decided it was better to direct energy in adding 23 unique druid forms, which, judging by your last login:

Jezer's last logon was Sat Oct 30 19:48:33 2010

you have clearly tried and tested extensively. Largely scrapped/reworked into the epics killed for the forms quest, but who knows, maybe they'll show up later.

- Hm. Not sure about the map thing. But if that is what you enjoy about Sloth, evident by your 'overwhelming' number of map submissions, I will talk to Isabo.

For everyone else, I wish to know what is it about Sloth that appeals to you so I can try to improve and expand upon it to further your enjoyment.

emailing chobbs@slothmud.org works too.

Chobbs

[jezer]

My apologies, I neglected to see that you only wanted ideas you like, from people you like. My bad.

Going wiki style with help files just might help ease the burden of updating it. (Player Approved Updates) The mere fact you don't have much time for the epic system like the majority of most players seemed a good reason to make it better even though I'm mostly with you on that one. I've have had a look at your form changes. I don't understand druid pets inaction, fix them or scrap them.

As for my absence - it's summer here, I'm about to climb my 19th mountain tomorrow and until the weather starts to turn nasty I plan to enjoy the outdoors as much as I can.

I'm sure your think of something fairly good.

[*Splork*]

Seriously, why even bother down this route? Chobbs kindly asked for suggestions and sure enough, one of our inactive players responds with the type of bullshit which drives the active Immortals away. Either way, if you have nothing to contribute to the thread in hand, maybe its time to to stop trolling and get back to climbing mount Everest for the 100th time.

Splork

[jezer]

Seriously, why even bother down this route? Chobbs kindly asked for suggestions and sure enough, one of our inactive players responds with the type of bullshit which drives the active Immortals away. Either way, if you have nothing to contribute to the thread in hand, maybe its time to to stop trolling and get back to climbing mount Everest for the 100th time.

Splork

I've put forward two ideas Splork, the players have noted, and out you come like a guard dog, accusing me of "bullshit which drives the active Immortals away." You just want me to leave and your trying to steer things that way. And it's called Mount Aspiring fyi.

[Filk]

I can say for druids. Some things that annoying me.
Mana cost for beeing in form is still too high. Starting from wurm at 2x40 i guess, it becomes very heavy. Especially for blasting forms. Maybe it should be just cutted twice. Or shapeshift mastery moved to something like 1 avatar. Or another skill,that reduce that mana cost, maybe depending on total levels. But i think it should be much lower. Now its irritating.

Also, we have few druid eq. Actually there are few slots that have no items at all. Maybe some good forges, probably hard, but with good items?

I cant skip awaken. It was fixed. Great. Maybe some more work on it? Like non-combat pets, that gives bonuses, or debuffing mobs? I miss web, curse etc. How about adding some follower for that?

There was suggestion to make drachma items refunds with full price, probably with high coins cost. I guess that would be cool addition. Comments and ideas on its own topic.

Thanks for attention

[Thraxas]

Ok, what keeps me coming back for more? To put it in a nutshell the sense of progression and development.

As I play I gain xp and level which makes me more powerful and gives me new skills.
The early days of a character are the most fun when there is a short gap between each new progression point, the later stages are far less fun and more like a long slog followed sometimes by a fantastic new skill / spell / pet / shift form, sometimes though a long slog followed by death and the fruits of the labour wiped away or a disappointingly unuseful new skill / spell / pet / shift form.

Hours of what can be fun if repetative play should yield some benefit, at low level gaining your first worthwhile fighting shift form, or your first necro animate or finally getting double stab is hugely rewarding, every few days of play something worthwhile happens that gives you a warm glow about the growing abilities of your character. Later when you're faced with 12 billion xp needed to get the last 11 quint levels to make 5x40 and you dont even get any noticeable reward for getting there (better equipment available to wear benefitting me by -0.1ac) isnt hugely incentifising, the prospect of 42 billion needed for the 27 levels to get 6x40 and 2nd trip40 eq is frankly depressing.

Fun for me would be at regular intervals and far more frequently than each 40 getting something substantial and new that makes my character more powerful, so yes for necros far more pets, a new one every 10 levels each noticably more powerful than the last, as a mage a new blast spell every 10 levels thats superceded the last, for thieves a small increase in stab power every level or few levels, for warriors some ac bonus at regular intervals, druids a new shift form every few levels (it seems a lot of work has gone into do this already).

As a rough guide I would say that if you put in 12 hours active play (a serious investment in time) you should get something noticable in return that is a permanent benefit to your character. As an example of how I view things now, presently if I played 12 hours at 50mill an hour (which is pushing it even for me) gives me just about 1 level which equates to I think 2hp, the next 12 hours wouldnt even give me a level.

I hope this attempt at a serious answer helps,

Thraxas

[jezer]

Agree Thraxas.

Fluffy... As hard as it is to get some of these items, maintaining form is actually an issue with your eq, and it's not a problem at high levels. As a druid, you need to work on drachma for shifted mana regen items. Mana regen that shifts is more powerful in proportion to mana regen that doesn't shift.

<used as light> a razor sharp thorn..It has a soft glowing aura! (with a flawed glowing gem attached to it)
<worn on finger> a wiedzmin ring..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn on finger> a wiedzmin ring..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn around neck> an emblem of the sun..It has a soft glowing aura! (with a ruby studded charm attached to it)
<worn around neck> an emblem of the sun..It has a soft glowing aura! (with a ruby studded charm attached to it)
<worn on body> Shroud of the Exalted Priest..It has a soft glowing aura! (with a double-striped white sash (Sergeant) attached to it)
<worn on head> a wolf head hat..It has a soft glowing aura! (with a reddish-colored glass eye attached to it)
<worn on legs> sandy silk pants
<worn on feet> Boots of the Forest Walker..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn on hands> a set of infernite gauntlets..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn on arms> Sleeves of the Laughing Rogue..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn as shield> shield of the rose..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn about body> Cloak of the Tainted Rose..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn about waist> a clipped feather (with charm of the demon mage attached to it)
<worn around wrist> a band of ether
<worn around wrist> a band of ether
<wielded> Holy Staff of the Elders..It has a soft glowing aura!
<held> Ars Magica (with the Iolite of Omah attached to it)

[Filk]

Agree Thraxas.

Fluffy... As hard as it is to get some of these items, maintaining form is actually an issue with your eq, and it's not a problem at high levels. As a druid, you need to work on drachma for shifted mana regen items. Mana regen that shifts is more powerful in proportion to mana regen that doesn't shift.

I doubt you understand the question now. I guess thats your eq at sloth3 5x40. It differs from mine for like 10mr shifted. Not that much, compared to 130 mana/tick minotaur eating now. And that is only 3x40 form. The far we go - the more it becomes. And i get only that extra 10mr at the very end. Not good compare result.

[Atwell]

What made SlothMUD III "fun"? For me, it was discoveries of emergent behavior. You can't create emergence intentionally (or it ceases to be emergent). If you create enough abilities that do strange things, you'll generally hit it eventually, but that's a tedious approach. I also enjoyed identifying corner cases of equipment significance. Like finding the lightest magefour ioun. I collected as many containers as possible and enjoyed that considerably. The engineer in me would have preferred an eqlist that covered those parameters, but it was also kind of fun having to pop stuff to find out what eqlist did not say. Attempting minimalism was fun, too: "How cheaply can I kill this mob/clear this area?" "How few people can take down $BIGMOB within 30 minutes?"

Note that I played SlothMUD III, not because it was fun per above, but because of reasons like those Thraxas described. The occasional fun was just a side bonus to the deeply addictive nature of the progression pattern.

[jezer]

Agree Thraxas.

Fluffy... As hard as it is to get some of these items, maintaining form is actually an issue with your eq, and it's not a problem at high levels. As a druid, you need to work on drachma for shifted mana regen items. Mana regen that shifts is more powerful in proportion to mana regen that doesn't shift.

I doubt you understand the question now. I guess thats your eq at sloth3 5x40. It differs from mine for like 10mr shifted. Not that much, compared to 130 mana/tick minotaur eating now. And that is only 3x40 form. The far we go - the more it becomes. And i get only that extra 10mr at the very end. Not good compare result.

You also get +mana regen which shifts for avatar levels. It's true, the power does come at the end with druid. If you want to conserve mana while shifted, don't use your highest form, use the one below it. From memory shift costs drop as you level. Your highest shift form is nearly always expensive. Shapeshift Mastery is awesome. Yeah, you may have a problem now... doubt you will later. But this always was the problem I tried to point out with druid, the progression seemed exponential, not linear. I tend to recall being able to maintain tarantula form in S3... that's pretty high.

[*juggleblood*]

Chobbs I love your humor. This thread gave me a big smile.

I love anything that boosts our numbers. It's just great logging in and seeing a big who list.

Your previous quests have been great in this regard, spiking interest in the game. So that's my suggestion. It's always great to see the honor / epic system grow, but nothing spikes interest in the game like the quests have.

It'd be neat to see some kindof weeklong event that was automated that had multiple possible outcomes. So that all week long people felt they needed to log in to help get this thing accomplished.

[Thraxas]

What makes Sloth fun? well what makes any mud fun or for that matter attract players?

A good resource can be found here: http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml (author of A Theory of Fun for Game Design)

if you dont want to follow the link or read it all then the following extract is pertinent:

Design Rules
The secrets to a really long-lived, goal-oriented, online game of wide appeal

•have multiple paths of advancement (individual features are nice, but making them ladders is better)
•make it easy to switch between paths of advancementt (ideally, without having to start over)
•make sure the milestones in the path of advancement are clear and visible and significant (having 600 meaningless milestones doesn't help)
•ideally, make your game not have a sense of running out of significant milestones (try to make your ladder not feel finite)

However for those prepared to read the full article there is a lot of wisdom as well as humour there that may go some way to answering Chobbs question.

Two last truisms from the same article:

Featuritis
No matter how many new features you have or add, the players will always want more.

Pleasing your Players
Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forgot they asked for it to begin with.

Enjoy

Thraxas

[norks]

Hi Chobbs

I took a long break, over a year I think, after Sloth IV started as I hated the constant struggle for coins, eq, xp and so on while feeling I was not getting anywhere. Not sure if it was real or just a reaction to change but I got the impression that everything was nerfed and felt frustrated. Once the sense of progression pales into insignificance compared to the grind, I tend to lose interest.

So what keeps me coming back? Well I like the format, the structure the commands. It’s all very familiar and I am very lazy. The people here are, for the most part great, on both sides of the immortal fence. I like the big quest groups, they are often fun as are area openers and the drachma always comes in handy. Some aqs are so opaque they can only be solved by the cheatsheet method you referred to in you original post. I would like proper clues for more independent solving.

I largely agree with Thraxas on this so won’t say it all again but from a selfish cleric point of view I would like to see more supplication creatures. Currently we have the same old SIII things spread out over nine classes and the progression seems stifled somewhat. It’s such a slog between x40s often for little or no gain in power. So more creatures please, or allow more than one, or have some creatures which are not alignment dependent.

It would also be great if the 3x40 eq was available earlier: 3x40, 4x40 and 5x40 as that’s when it’s most useful and is like personal milestone eq.

Regards,

Norks