New Area Changes etc

[jezer]

I've been getting around to trying the areas with xp improvements. I'm pretty impressed, getting in most cases what I would call 'fair.' I'm not quite sure when tony's was changed, but prongs are now back to how they were (xp wise)... albeit, quite a bit thicker and rougher for the xp, but once again in the 'fair' zone in comparison for now.

I'd still like to see nightmare as 2x40 And those new druid pets that were all but finished at one stage. (What happened?) The avatar guide appears to still need updating, (Splork announced 7/7 hit dam but guide says 6/6). No word yet about what we can buy with tokens at avatar to keep us interested. An extension idea for the vendor could be some kind of gem trading system - that would be helpful instead of the whole waiting till people are on, gossiping and title thingy. (Trying to organise a 4-5 way swap at the moment is quite possible but hard work) Help system could now show xp and coins for all levels yeah? And website pages suggests that the info is wrong? Shapeshift Mastery still needs to move to an avatar level before druids get phoenix to be in keeping with s3. Dispel fly spell The crier needs a lock on my posts from the alterations the imms have been making to them Albeit sometime later, when they think no one notices.

Monk damage dice and wimpy grip still needs looked at. If I recall correctly in my hamster thread there is a comment by splork admitting it needed a look at. You know at avatar, monks will be "able to" get to about around 30 hand dam max... (Although you'll be doing very well to have much more than 20-23 at 8x40) and there damage dice is 2d4 (a max of Eight) Seems a little silly doesn't it. If anything the dice should be higher, and the available damage lower. This would help lowbies. We all know using a sword is far better in the lower levels.

Anything else Jezer?
I'll get back to you...

One area that I did find that was below par, was Labyrinth. See log below. Possibly an area that need a 'real' fix instead of just adding a percentage. The worm mob was the same deal for half the xp. I would have tried more, but you'll understand why...

<875hp 428ma 297mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461367796xp>
dgs loc
A cave locust hates your guts!
You circle around a cave locust and expertly put it in a deathgrip.

<877hp 428ma 279mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461385156xp>
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its bite.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.

<806hp 428ma 280mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461385156xp>
You maintain your deathgrip on a cave locust.

<807hp 428ma 281mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461387481xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<808hp 428ma 282mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461388405xp>
l loc
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.

<781hp 428ma 283mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461388405xp>
You maintain your deathgrip on a cave locust.

<781hp 428ma 284mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461394719xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<782hp 428ma 284mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461397815xp>
A deafening clap of thunder explodes from the Gauntlets of Thunder as you land a powerful blow!
a cave locust staggers under the strike and appears dazed.


<784hp 428ma 286mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461398403xp>
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.

<767hp 428ma 286mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461398403xp>
You maintain your deathgrip on a cave locust.

<768hp 428ma 286mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461399239xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<769hp 428ma 287mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461405191xp>
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust impales itself on thorns round your body!
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You release your grip on a cave locust.

<743hp 428ma 289mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461406467xp>
The large brown insect has impressive hind legs used for hopping, and sharp
mandibles which open and retract side to side, in anticipation of the next
meal. Without eyes, the cave locust relies on its array of sensitive
antennae to feel vibrations from intruders and potential food in the
darkness.
A cave locust is an insect, worm, or spider.
A cave locust has some small wounds and bruises.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

<745hp 428ma 290mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461406467xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<730hp 428ma 291mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461410475xp>
web
Ok.
A cave locust is enmeshed in thick webs!

<732hp 413ma 292mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461410475xp>
strike
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<720hp 415ma 294mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461416246xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust impales itself on thorns round your body!
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<704hp 417ma 296mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461421357xp>
res
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!

<907hp 357ma 298mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461429397xp>
lion
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust bites you extremely hard.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust impales itself on thorns round your body!
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.

<858hp 358ma 299mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461431938xp>
You begin to sing 'lion chorus'.
Ok.
You feel as fierce as a lion!

<858hp 349ma 300mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461431938xp>
strike
You cease your counterattack stance.

<859hp 350ma 301mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461431938xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<860hp 351ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461434338xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust bites you extremely hard.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<808hp 351ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461438215xp>
strike
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust bites you extremely hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You sing another verse of 'lion chorus'.
You prepare yourself for a counter-attack.

<779hp 352ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461443729xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<779hp 352ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461449585xp>
strike
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<737hp 354ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461451888xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<738hp 355ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461453826xp>
strike
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust bites you extremely hard.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<702hp 357ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461455430xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<702hp 357ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461459918xp>
l loc
web
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<685hp 360ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461467796xp>
The large brown insect has impressive hind legs used for hopping, and sharp
mandibles which open and retract side to side, in anticipation of the next
meal. Without eyes, the cave locust relies on its array of sensitive
antennae to feel vibrations from intruders and potential food in the
darkness.
A cave locust is an insect, worm, or spider.
A cave locust has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

<685hp 360ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461467796xp>
You stop singing.
Ok.
The silk webbing simply falls to the ground, as a cave locust is already webbed!

<685hp 345ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461467796xp>
strike
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<687hp 347ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461472014xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust bites you extremely hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust impales itself on thorns round your body!
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<634hp 348ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461476467xp>
res
The song ends and you don't feel so fierce any more.

<637hp 350ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461476467xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!

<832hp 288ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461488388xp>
lion
str
You lost your concentration!

<834hp 285ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461488388xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
You hit a cave locust extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<786hp 286ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461494492xp>
lion
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<787hp 287ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461498470xp>
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust impales itself on thorns round your body!
A cave locust hits you very hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You hit a cave locust extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<774hp 289ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461501618xp>
str
You lost your concentration!

<776hp 285ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461501618xp>
str
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust's attack obliterates your shield of thorns!
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<752hp 287ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461505583xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<752hp 287ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461507581xp>
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<730hp 289ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461515175xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<730hp 290ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461518253xp>
l loc
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its bite.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<653hp 293ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461522654xp>
The large brown insect has impressive hind legs used for hopping, and sharp
mandibles which open and retract side to side, in anticipation of the next
meal. Without eyes, the cave locust relies on its array of sensitive
antennae to feel vibrations from intruders and potential food in the
darkness.
A cave locust is an insect, worm, or spider.
A cave locust looks pretty hurt.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

<653hp 293ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461522654xp>
You cease your counterattack stance.

<653hp 293ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461522654xp>
You prepare yourself for a counter-attack.

<653hp 293ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461522654xp>
res
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!

<865hp 232ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461531134xp>
str
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its bite.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<790hp 233ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461537776xp>
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<791hp 234ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461539666xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You hit a cave locust extremely hard.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<772hp 236ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +16dam +37mr 461545247xp>
lion
You begin to sing 'lion chorus'.
Ok.
You feel as fierce as a lion!

<773hp 227ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461545247xp>
str
A deafening clap of thunder explodes from the Gauntlets of Thunder as you land a powerful blow!
a cave locust staggers under the strike and appears dazed.


<775hp 229ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461545719xp>
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust misses you with its hit.
You quickly duck aside and use a cave locust's strength against it in a brutal counterattack!
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
You land a powerful strike into a cave locust's side.

<750hp 229ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +37mr 461559946xp>
You sing another verse of 'lion chorus'.
A rodent scurries across the floor and into a hole.
You are hungry.

<752hp 228ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +12mr 461559946xp>
str
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.
A cave locust misses you with its bite.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
A cave locust hits you extremely hard.
A cave locust massacres you to small fragments with its hit.
You deal a critical blow to one of a cave locust's vital organs.
You brutally massacre a cave locust with your hit.
You massacre a cave locust to small fragments with your hit.

<678hp 228ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +12mr 461565034xp>
You stop singing.
Impossible! You can't concentrate enough!

<678hp 228ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +12mr 461565034xp>
You do not see a food here.

<678hp 228ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +12mr 461565034xp>
You can't find it

<678hp 228ma 302mv +4al -4.7ac +20dam +12mr 461565034xp>
The 'haste' spell on you is about to wear off.
A cave locust looks shocked as it sees your fist embedded in its abdomen, then collapses.
A cave locust is dead! R.I.P.
You received 937188 experience points.
Your blood freezes as you hear a cave locust's death cry.
You get gold coins from the corpse of a cave locust that's on the ground.
There were 1183 coins.

[Dragoth]

Why didnt you sing lion chorus before gripping ? It gives your grip multiplier an extra 4 damage to work with. Also, lets not forget that you are not a monk prime and cant use focus and have a smaller grip multiplier, so your grips WILL be weaker.
Focus is monk prime only for a reason, it significantly improves the damage on the grips, same as poisons being reserved for thief prime. You dont see thief secondaries complain about weak stabs do you ?

Skills like deathgrip and backstab are class-defining and only really show their true potential with a prime class. If immortals allow secondaries to stab and grip as good as primes, what would be the point ?

However i just like to add that grips generally do seem to be a bit on the weak side and 2d4 roll for hand damage is a bit of a joke for a 3x40 where 3d6 swords are available.

Yes a monk can strike to offset weak hand dam, but pretty much every class can use some sort of additional melee attacks, thieves get circle and warriors get broadside.

I think a more progressive approach needs to be adapted in this scenario where both monk's position in the class order and monk levels play a role in determining the damage.

I'm not proposing that monks grips outdamage backstab as monks can grip nostab mobs that tend to have less hp in general, but surely a monk prime should be on par with thief prime in regards to his overall deathgrip damage considering monks take a good few rounds to unleash their deathgrip's full damage and do take alot of damage themselves as a result.

Just as a FYI, how many monk primes do you see ? The "who list" is usually a very good indicator of which classes are desirable and which classes need a bit of tweaking. Druids and monks are certainly the latter.

[jezer]

Lion/Gods doesn't work for grips Dragoth (read the help - tested in the arena too). It does work for strikes. Brothers will work for grips. Dragoth, I totally agree with your bottom 5 paragraphs. The first one was wrong. With the second one, I'm not asking to be a prime monk. Been there done that. I do know the difference.

Progressive monk damage dice, based on class position would be nice (Be careful with it at low levels, good swords are easy to come by at low levels). I didn't go prime monk, I have my reasons, I accept this! Monk "catches up" with swords at really high levels, with those stupidly high levels of hand dam (albeit it a VERY long hard road and getting 30 hand dam involves 1300 drachma, 4+ runes and 9x40). It's the noobs that are missing out.

You need 13-15 hand dam to be a functional gripper in a great place for small monks like hive. This is the base line. 13-15 hand dam is a bit of a stretch for non-experienced players. Without 13-15 hand dam... play any of the other old classo's I would not waste your time playing a monk.

Strike is the redeeming feature of monk. What ever messing one does, make sure it doesn't change. It does the same damage as a blast of about the same level. It's a good reason to play monk, without strike, no one should bother.

Grip is almost in 'the fair' zone at 15 hand dam+. I understand monks are not thieves. Monk grip does about half of what a thief can do. However "min grip" that chance to do "half damage" grips will do less than a strike in damage, and less damage in the last two rounds than fighting ungrippped! YES, I'm saying your better off to "miss completely" a wimpy grip, than land it. (Especially if you have 5 attacks, counter and crit hit - which all monks can have now)

You can't detect a wimpy grip either... you can only see this happen in the arena... or when it seems to take an extra 2 rounds to kill a stab mob - in which case it's run over or your dead.

It just seems odd to have a damage dice with a max of 8, when you are adding +30 damage. Prime bard you would be adding +40 damage. The damage component is 5-20x greater than the dice!!!!

So I'm fighting with a feather duster, but really hard?

Hmm, see what I'm saying? And look the closer to avatar I get, the more I don't care, monk starts to fix itself to be closer to sword damage... but noob monks are the ones that are paying for this mistake.

Grip damage works a bit too strongly on hand dam, it should work a bit more on the damage dice. See if I am wearing regen eq, I can't grip a hamster. Death grip should ALWAYS kill a hamster. To me this is a sign hand dam is to important in the equation, when it should be working more off a "class base dam" or better damage dice. After all, one hit with a sword kills a hamster.

[*Splork*]

Lions and Gods should indeed work with Deathgrip, backstab, circlestab, deathgrip, and wraithtouch. If it is not, the code is broken but I am assuming it is.

I had posted the code but have since removed it.

I will adjust the help file accordingly because we obviously added these skills into the code for these songs and never updated the help file, imagine that...

The avatar stuff will be updated when I find the time and feel the need, which probably is not going to be until a player is half-way to Avatar. Honestly, we have not given it much thought as Im sure it wont change much from a few years ago.

Nightmare will remain where it is.

The monk damage idea is pretty nice actually and will be taken into consideration.

Enjoy,
splork

[jezer]

Good to hear Splork. I hope what ever gets done gets canvased amongst all the immortals, I think the result will turn out better for all monks. Make sure some thought goes into the rework of the formula. The result should be a linear improvement of power over time. I feel at the moment the graph of monk power is more "exponential" (slower start, bigger rate of power at the end.)

I'm going to make a record of some fights on my grip mobs. And I'll be comparing it after the formula is changed. I'm certainly not expecting to go backwards. The effect caused by large amounts of hand dam can be lessened, if you stop using it as a grip multiplier, and go on levels and class order and then add a certain amount on top for each hand dam (treat it more like stab damage). There should be no need to nerf eq if it's done this way. At 4x40, I expect Jezer should be able to splork 500k mobs and have higher ac, than a thief I expect to be able to double stab close to 1000k at lower ac. These numbers are fair to me, we know monks are not thieves. It would be nice if the linear improvement could be also worked into strike and counterattack. Maybe dodge could work more like flurry or frenzy, instead of typing it every two rounds and it rarely works. It should work a bit like tumbling defense - avoiding or absorping part of the damage, and it should only work barehanded - we don't want warriors to get 2.parry.

The last bunch of stats for dodge... dodge 99 Fails 23

It would be cool if it added variety defensively to monk, and unless it can be used as well as strike, it's hardly ever going to get used.

[Skyv]

I think all of these ideas are very good ones but obviously that sounds a little self-serving from somone who only plays a monk prime. More damage, better ways to avoid damage... not going to argue much there.

I very much enjoy the idea of the prime classes having their own specialties. Right now, my monk is pretty much a multi-tasker without a specialty. I've been in groups where the decision has come down that a tank with thief in the 6-slot should backstab instead of an avatar prime monk deathgripping... and I really cannot argue with the decision... which seems a little strange to me.

One other idea I've had kicking around in my head for a while for a deathgrip modification would be to drastically increase the effect it has on the mob's ability to hit. After all, it is being "deathgripped" at the time. This would also allow for some more interesting strategy in a group - mages still have mana, clerics getting low, switch from stabber to gripper because you get 3 rounds of misses on the tank if the grip is successful. This would serve the purpose of not making monks more thief-like and make us a little more useful.

Just my two cents, I appreciate the time being put into this, including checking that lion's affects grip or whether 2x4 base damage is appropriate. If monks get too powerful, you can take away bodyslam

Skyv

[*Splork*]

Deathgrip does remove hitrolls already and attacks. Are you thinking we should have it remove more than it already does?

Splork

[jezer]

What Skyv suggested is already how it works, although I think he wants to see it work better.

The changes to the mobs hitroll when you grip are noticable on smaller mobs. The changes to hitroll are not well reflected on bigger mobs. Generally if I am permitted to grip in a group, I get rescued immediately, meaning I don't take much damage anyway, it's more useful in the solo arena, in my opinion.

With 5 attacks, at high damage (later), the damage of the attacks starts to get higher than the damage for the grip in the later rounds. Lesson 101 in death gripping from the Russians when I first played sloth dictated, it's better to release grip on the last round, as you will do more damage fighting than gripping. That is even more likely to be true these days with (5 attacks/critical and counter etc). In fact it will get to the point almost where even in my second round, the damage from grip will be comparable to regular attacks and a strike. One way to address this problem is too spread the damage over one less round. Monks will eventually have 6 attacks. This is an issue.

Otherwise it would be nice if the last round of grip was actually worth it. Having the hitroll lowered for this round I'm afraid means nothing if your damage is lower to kill it faster. Hitroll is less of a factor on grip mobs when they hit like trucks anyway. I think I'd rather see dodge improved to be truthful, maybe increased chance to "dodge" during grip, which avoids or reduces damage. It's easy to be innovative with the dodge idea. I understand changing the grip formula is a far harder task to balance between 1x40 to 9x40.

Maybe decreasing the mobs hitroll during deathgrip is only part of the solution.

Maybe the players chances to hit it should also go up... useful for a finishing strike?
Mobs damage could go down?
Mob could loose an attack during the period?
Mob ac could be lowered?
Mob spell saves lowered?

You suddenly find Jezer's arms wrapped around your neck.
That Really did HURT!
Jezer reports 818/825 hp. Change: +6. Need: 7. Spells: none.
You report 600/878 hp. Change: -276. Need: 278. Spells: none.
******* Kirah reports 600/878hp. Change: -270. Need: 278. Spells:
<16 600h 283m 282v 21741098x 224661g -0.4AC +12/+14 +4 /indoors/Thunder Dome Arena/BH>
Jezer quickly ducks aside and uses your strength against you in a brutal counterattack!
You pierce Jezer very hard.
Jezer maintains his deathgrip on you.
Jezer reports 810/825 hp. Change: -8. Need: 15. Spells: none.
You report 446/878 hp. Change: -154. Need: 432. Spells: none.
******* Kirah reports 446/878hp. Change: -154. Need: 432. Spells:
Jezer: 1 very -- 10-13 damage
Gained 649xp
<17 446h 283m 282v 21741747x 224661g -0.4AC +12/+14 +4 /indoors/Thunder Dome Arena/BH>
Redcross[hosers]> 'i love when that happens'
<17 447h 283m 282v 21741747x 224661g -0.4AC +12/+14 +4 /indoors/Thunder Dome Arena/BH>
% Tick!
Jezer maintains his deathgrip on you.
You report 382/878 hp. Change: -64. Need: 496. Spells: none.
******* Kirah reports 382/878hp. Change: -64. Need: 496. Spells:
<17 382h 283m 282v 21741747x 224661g -0.4AC +12/+14 +4 /indoors/Thunder Dome Arena/BH>
You stab yourself on Jezer's thorns!
Jezer quickly ducks aside and uses your strength against you in a brutal counterattack!
You report 359/878 hp. Change: -23. Need: 519. Spells: none.


This was some test I did with Kirah a while back. One counter attack was 1/3 of the damage of the last round of grip. It's clearly going to be more with the attacks and criticals added on. 5 x (2d4 + 14 + criticals)

Given the nice figures in the recent spelldam tests by Tuk and Toxis, you can understand why players play mages when a single spell can do more opening damage than our grip, in fact with there mirrors they even dodge attacks better.

According to old source code Deathgrip adds -2 to the mobs HITROLL. It's a good thing... but you can understand it makes little difference on bigger mobs that already has 20!

[*Splork*]

I spoke to Krom regarding the situation and he informed me that a monk's base damage is 2d4 however they get level bonuses. Here is what a monks actual damage is:
Its 2d4 +1d3/10 levels monk
So at 40 monk its 2d4+4d3, average of 13, by comparison a dwarven axe forge does 11.5 on average.

I will share more of our conversation and ideas regarding helping monks out tomorrow.

Splork

[Mace]

Based on some of the old leaked code, a weak deathgrip happens each time the check fails for improved attack (85%) giving a base damage of 1d2.

[jezer]

Overpower

[*Splork*]

Mace is correct and we are going to allow levels of a Monk to raise the percentage learned of improved attack to 95 so that this would rarely happen.

Monks dont get the +hit bonus for weapons (typically +1 to +3), AND also do not get the swordsmanship bonus of +1 to +3 most people get for warrior levels when using a slashing weapon. This is often a combined shift of around +4 less to hit. We will be adding a skill, most likely based on levels, which will improve a monks accuracy bare handed to make up the difference.

Enjoy,
Splork

[Toxis]

That was one of the reasons why I stopped messing with my monk, he had tons of +hit eq but could barely hit mobs that my level 20 was hitting with a holy sword. Plus I wished that monk could have some sort of crippling strike to mobs when grouping. *nudge nudge* Thanks, Rick.

-Brad

[harik]

You suddenly find Jezer's arms wrapped around your neck.
That Really did HURT!
Jezer reports 818/825 hp. Change: +6. Need: 7. Spells: none.
You report 600/878 hp. Change: -276. Need: 278. Spells: none.
******* Kirah reports 600/878hp. Change: -270. Need: 278. Spells:

According to old source code Deathgrip adds -2 to the mobs HITROLL. It's a good thing... but you can understand it makes little difference on bigger mobs that already has 20!

Oh hay I'm in this thread.

I'd like to point out that a lot of stuff is different between PvP and PvE, so arena testing isn't the entire story. Remember that Avalanche does 0 player damage, you only get 1x backstab vs a player, etc.

Couldn't a lot of that PvP specific code go away at this point? With no PvP outside the arena the balance issues it was addressing aren't really relevant.

One of these days I'll have time to login again, really!

[Hitman]

Hello all. I haven't been playing for months now, but I just happened to stumble upon this and I must say it makes me really glad to see some of the issues I had with the monk are finally coming to light and being addressed! Makes me wish I had more time so I can start playing 24/7 again! Bravo imms!
Hope to see good changes for the class and more monk primes in the future!

Take care all. Cheers.
H-man