How to deathgrip Hamsters?

[jezer]

So I'd just recalled after fixing my align and thought, hey lets grab a peri to heal me up... Just my luck! A snotty nosed hamster was sitting at SS recall staring at me. So I leapt over and put him in a deathgrip!

Here is how it went...

[color=red:1wq5tl5a]A small red hamster hates your guts!
You circle around a small red hamster and expertly put her in a deathgrip.

<62hp 13ma 124mv +5al 1.3ac>
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING that much!

<63hp 15ma 125mv +5al 1.3ac>
You maintain your deathgrip on a small red hamster.

<64hp 15ma 125mv +5al 1.3ac>
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING that much!

<65hp 17ma 127mv +5al 1.3ac>
You maintain your deathgrip on a small red hamster.
A small red hamster is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.

<66hp 18ma 127mv +5al 1.3ac>
A small red hamster arrives from the east.

<66hp 19ma 127mv +5al 1.3ac>
You maintain your deathgrip on a small red hamster.
A small red hamster is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.

<68hp 21ma 129mv +5al 1.3ac>
You release your grip on a small red hamster.

<70hp 24ma 130mv +5al 1.3ac>
You tickle a small red hamster as you hit her.
A small red hamster is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
You massacre a small red hamster to small fragments with your hit.
A small red hamster is dead! R.I.P.
You received 188 experience points.
Your blood freezes as you hear a small red hamster's death cry.
You get gold coins from the corpse of a small red hamster that's on the ground.
There were 28 coins.
[/color:1wq5tl5a]

Ok, so I am a 1.31 druid, monk secondary. I was wearing +2 hand dam eq and I had 11str... now for another test... oh yes... it's time for the big guns...

[color=red:1wq5tl5a]cast 'magic missile' hamster
Ok.
A small red hamster hates your guts!
You watch with self-pride as the magic missile hits a small red hamster.

<660hp 318ma 174mv +5al 1.3ac>
cast 'magic missile' hamster
You hit a small red hamster extremely hard.
A small red hamster is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
You massacre a small red hamster to small fragments with your hit.
A small red hamster is dead! R.I.P.
You received 195 experience points.
Your blood freezes as you hear a small red hamster's death cry.
You get gold coins from the corpse of a small red hamster that's on the ground.
There were 28 coins.
[/color:1wq5tl5a]

That's right, my deathgrip does barely more than a magic missile... whats more, the last 2 rounds of my deathgrip do almost entirely NOTHING AT ALL. Of course this fact has been quite well known since sloth 3. In fact most monks release there grip after the first round, or the second round... which begs to question... what is the point of this skill. It may have always been this way... but in my opinion, then it's always been crap!

Now, I suspect that deathgrip isn't actually as bad as what I'm making out here... although the clear evidence is pretty damn damaging... I suspect that deathgrip is crap when you aren't doing much damage... ie, half of not much seems like nothing... but I did hope... Splork in particular, might consider reworking the formula for death grip to make it a skill worth using without +15 dam plus.

I also call into question the way it works in regards to, seemingly "halving the damage" of the previous rounds until it is released. This will nearly always make it so the last round is not worth holding the mob for.

When a level 31 secondary monk can't deathgrip a hamster, do ya think I'm within my boundaries to think this is not right? I do!

</rant>

[Marvel]

11 str seems a bit too low for gripping mobs in my view. I mean, grip is almost like stabbing in my view - you have a weak grip due to not having enough strength - from what I've experienced.

[jezer]

I think your right Marvel... and I expect if I had 18 str I could possibly deathgrip about 10-15k Mobs... however I get the feeling the damage from deathgrip works a bit like this...

[img:3copnzzx]http://www.berkeleyscience.com/images/image34.jpg[/img:3copnzzx]

If you remember back a few years when Nab was playing... he had some thing close to 30 damage for a grip? He was said to be immensely powerful, and that mobs died just from the grimace on his face... well ok, maybe not that... anyways the God's nerfed monk dam eq by more than half... and he left the game?!? erm, great result... Back then he had that awesome shield with the +5 Hand dam that cost like 1100 drachma. I think I had Jezer able to get to +18 back then.

Anyways... my point is, I think deathgrip works exponentially. It would explain why at Nab levels he was insanely powerful, and at the lower levels you can barely kill a hamster. I remember another old s3 player who had a fairly good monk, reckoned his strike was equiv to a firewind... but I think Fable was often full of hot air...

4 squared is 16.
15 squared is 225.
30 squared is 900.

This kind of formula makes deathgrip an unreasonable skill below certain levels of str and eq... There is barely enough eq to scrap together 15 Hand dam, and at 2x40 level, I think you'd be doing well to scrap together 7-10 without group helps. Not a wonder we aren't seeing monk primes... I mean without good deathgrips a monk is more like a bard, without songs.

Erm, another quick point, if str makes such a difference to grip why is a monk prime stat CON? It's a bit like making a druid's max stat DEX.

Anyways, I am asking the formula be re-worked... I personally expect with a few more str points and maybe +2-3 more dam, I could walk into cata's and half kill a skeleton. At high levels I'd be expecting to splork murkwood mobs and beyond, this was in the realm of my old monk before nerfs.

I know it's like a "dirty comment" to compare thieves and monks, but come on... the skills are for the same purpose... and monks are weak crap without the huge amount of hand dam bought sub avatar.

At the end of the day, a secondary monk, of almost 2 x 40 levels, can't grip and kill a hamster, when a magic missile nearly can, a weak stab can, even just a single blow from a weapon can, and that's not right.

[*juggleblood*]

wowsers,

*comfort*

[Marvel]

You have to remember a couple of things: lion chorus helped Nab out a LOT, he had the natural handdam/dam/hit from levels, and focus (monk prime skill) helps immensely as well.

Marvel is at 18 str with 5 handdam (as far as I remember) - I thought I would do some testing for you:

Raw grip (no focus):
dg sash
A Red Sash Guard hates your guts!
You circle around a Red Sash Guard and expertly put him in a deathgrip.

<541hp 222ma 138mv 2519555 EXP -10>
A soldier of Bal Harbor leaves east.

<541hp 222ma 139mv 2519555 EXP -10>
You maintain your deathgrip on a Red Sash Guard.

<541hp 222ma 140mv 2522075 EXP -10>
look guard
A Red Sash Guard misses you with his slash.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
You manage to duck a Red Sash Guard's strike.
You have violated your oath to uphold good by attacking a Red Sash Guard.
You have lost 1 Honor for your dishonorable conduct.
Saving Marvel.
Saving items.

<529hp 222ma 141mv 2522075 EXP -10>
The Red Sash are an ancient and respected private army of the Degrance
family. Hardened soldiers imported from the farthest corners of the world
to protect the city of Bal Harbor, the corp of red sashes serve the King of
Bal Harbor without pause. Dressed in a crimson red battle suit drawn
taught at the waist with a bright red sash, the soldier is a forboding
presence.
A Red Sash Guard has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

<529hp 222ma 141mv 2522075 EXP -10>
You maintain your deathgrip on a Red Sash Guard.
A Red Sash Guard hates your guts!

<531hp 222ma 142mv 2522354 EXP -10>
A Red Sash Guard jumps to the defense of his comrade!
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.

<517hp 222ma 143mv 2522354 EXP -10>
A Red Sash Guard misses you with his slash.
A Red Sash Guard misses you with his slash.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
OOF! a Red Sash Guard lands a powerful strike into your side.
You manage to duck a Red Sash Guard's strike.

<463hp 222ma 143mv 2522354 EXP -10>
look guardA soldier of Bal Harbor arrives from the east.
You maintain your deathgrip on a Red Sash Guard.

<465hp 222ma 144mv 2522444 EXP -10>
look guard
The Red Sash are an ancient and respected private army of the Degrance
family. Hardened soldiers imported from the farthest corners of the world
to protect the city of Bal Harbor, the corp of red sashes serve the King of
Bal Harbor without pause. Dressed in a crimson red battle suit drawn
taught at the waist with a bright red sash, the soldier is a forboding
presence.
A Red Sash Guard is in awful condition.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

<466hp 222ma 145mv 2522444 EXP -10>
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard misses you with his slash.
You manage to duck a Red Sash Guard's strike.
You manage to duck a Red Sash Guard's strike.
You have violated your oath to uphold good by attacking a Red Sash Guard.
You have lost 1 Honor for your dishonorable conduct.
Saving Marvel.
Saving items.

<424hp 222ma 145mv 2522444 EXP -10>
look guardA Red Sash Guard hates your guts!
You release your grip on a Red Sash Guard.

<426hp 222ma 146mv 2522556 EXP -10>
look guard
The Red Sash are an ancient and respected private army of the Degrance
family. Hardened soldiers imported from the farthest corners of the world
to protect the city of Bal Harbor, the corp of red sashes serve the King of
Bal Harbor without pause. Dressed in a crimson red battle suit drawn
taught at the waist with a bright red sash, the soldier is a forboding
presence.
A Red Sash Guard is in awful condition.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

<426hp 222ma 146mv 2522556 EXP -10>
st
You miss a Red Sash Guard with your hit.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
You massacre a Red Sash Guard to small fragments with your hit.
A Red Sash Guard is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
You brutally massacre a Red Sash Guard with your hit.
A Red Sash Guard is dead! R.I.P.
Total exp for kill is 28771.
You have violated your oath to uphold good by killing a Red Sash Guard.
You have lost 15 Honor for your dishonorable conduct.
Saving Marvel.
Saving items.
*** As you can see, the maintaining of the grip dealt more damage to the Sash - usually takes them at least 1 condition less per maintained round.

Now here's the fun part:

Grip with focus:
You begin to tremble as you struggle to focus strength.

<205hp 188ma 175mv 2589724 EXP -9>
dg sash
A Red Sash Guard hates your guts!
You circle around a Red Sash Guard and expertly put him in a deathgrip.

<205hp 188ma 160mv 2594820 EXP -9>
look A Red Sash Guard misses you with his slash.
A Red Sash Guard slashes you very hard.
You manage to duck a Red Sash Guard's strike.
You have violated your oath to uphold good by attacking a Red Sash Guard.
You have lost 1 Honor for your dishonorable conduct.
Saving Marvel.
Saving items.

<194hp 189ma 162mv 2594820 EXP -9>
look guardYou maintain your deathgrip on a Red Sash Guard.
A Red Sash Guard hates your guts!
A Red Sash Guard is dead! R.I.P.
Total exp for kill is 25895.
You have violated your oath to uphold good by killing a Red Sash Guard.
You have lost 15 Honor for your dishonorable conduct.
Saving Marvel.
Saving items.
Your blood freezes as you hear a Red Sash Guard's death cry.
You get gold coins from the corpse of a Red Sash Guard that's on the ground.
There were 205 coins.
Your victim goes limp in your hands.

[Marvel]

Another note: Jezer is at 31o, Marvel is 31o. Only difference is that Marvel is monk prime and has 18 str / 5 handdam on him. See if you can get up to 18 str and get some handdam on so we can see how monk secondary compares to prime.

[jezer]

Thanks for testing that Marvel... that was useful to me... My odd classo of druid/monk was an experiment, that is looking to fail at the moment, based on that information.

I must say I'm disappointed that even at your level with focus, 18 str and 5 hand dam you failed to splork a 25k mob. I honestly feel sorry for all monks... if that's all they got. Unless the formula is exponential and at avatar we can see some true power I should probably make a new character.

Seems every time I call a character Jezer it's crap... lol

EDIT: Str is my last stat, and yeah, I'd be happy to try and compare the prime and secondary grips, without the focus. I'll look for you when I'm on, maybe I can borrow some of ur eq for a test.

[Marvel]

Well, our classos aren't that far apart - yours is d/o/c, mine is o/d/c... but the upside is that it will make said testing much easier. Just ask if I'm on in any form whenever you want to try testing. Marvel lives on BH.

[jezer]

So hows the gripping going Jez, well... I'm glad you asked!

dg cit
A citizen hates your guts!
You circle around a citizen and expertly put him in a deathgrip.
A citizen is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.

<646hp 266ma 168mv +4al -0.5ac>
You maintain your deathgrip on a citizen.
A citizen is dead! R.I.P.
Total exp for kill is 578.
Your blood freezes as you hear a citizen's death cry.
You get gold coins from the corpse of a citizen that's on the ground.
There were 7417 coins.
Your victim goes limp in your hands.

He stole the fat merchants coins ok...

That was with level 37 secondary monk, 16str and 6 damage. Now that I can JUST grip bal harbor citizens, it's really added another dimension to my xp runs.

[Toxis]

On S3 I kept trying to make hybrid characters and well all versions seemed to fail in one way or another. Sometimes they can be fun, but in the end I take the advice that quite a few people gave to me and that is if you're going to make a druid, play like a druid. If you're going to make a monk, play like a monk.

On the other hand, if Jezer works out someday and is kickass I will think dr/mo playing like a monk would be kind of cool. Here's wishing good luck to you.

-Brad

[jezer]

I took my 18str and +11 dam +9 hit to hive tonight, whiffed 5/6 grips, no splorks. I can't grip a 65k aged xp splork mob. I've since had comments from 4 imms, since my original post, ranging from complete sympathy ~ yeah it could do with a tweak. Anyways, this post was not to moan about death grip again...

[color=red:2r7unw4j]I think the ac on hive mobs might need to be looked at, I suspect it might be effected by that high random ac bug.[/color:2r7unw4j]

[Thraxas]

Hive works well for me as is ... but then I treat as chop.

T

[*juggleblood*]

[quote="jezer":3njx4mss]
[color=red:3njx4mss]I think the ac on hive mobs might need to be looked at, I suspect it might be effected by that high random ac bug.[/color:3njx4mss][/quote:3njx4mss]

Sure. Will do.

But just for the record, it's not a bug. The issue is thus; in previous incarnations of sloth mob AC had a very limited effect on anything. So the builders of some areas just set mob ac willy nilly. Well, now that mob ac works more like player ac, those mobs are somewhat unbalanced.

edit: HOLY COW, the mob AC there was ridiculous! Thx Jezer. Working on it now.

[jezer]

Ok, went back to hive tonight, and tested it out. I have to give credit, when credit is due...

I'm impressed... it may even be worth players going there now... If it stayed like it was, I for one would have never gone back. I landed grip about... 85% of the time (As you'd hope). Mobs are about the size of the sergeant and commander firenewts. Expect 100k xp on aged mobs.

If you grip with 18str +11dam and strike 3~4 rounds during the grip you should be able to kill them before they flee. A prime monk with focus, or a non prime monk with 18str and about +15dam would do well there. Of course nothing will probably beat the most popular area in the game shadow keep... but low prime monks... I think this is your new awesome area.

Scratching together 18str and +15 dam for non-prime monks is a bit of a stretch at the moment... (without lion chorus it will require forged eq - beyond the realm of lowbies) and by the time you've done this as a non-prime, this area will probably be no good for you xp wise, which is a shame... unless deathgrip is boosted... However primes with focus would probably be ok, and area would be useful til 1x40. So with the problems with monk str and eq, for this area to be even better, the hp's of the bees should drop a little, and maybe they should hit a little harder to make it more thief style and beneficial for not just low primes with focus, but all grippers. Alternatively death grip could be boosted, or monk hand dam eq could be better balanced and better restricted... ie, SMo 2x40, SMo 3x40 etc, to make sure your dam is fairly capped at certain levels.

Bank before you go here, they steal like crazy, and being able to web is a large advantage. Bee's won't give you too much trouble with -4 or so ac... if you lite up. So it's great for prime monks on there way to 1x40.

On this AC issue, it's a little bit un-nerving to think there are a huge amount of mobs out there with bungled ac effecting monks and thiefs on there hits... I whiffed a bit higher in firenewts testing things out than hive... are firenewts a fraction high (marginal call). Any chance areas could be systematically checked for this bug, it's not easy for players to tell, and if it is effecting things, players get a little ripped off. I know it's a heck of a lot of work... but over time... or if areas checked could be posted... I dunno.

Thanks for fix, that area is useful again in my opinion. Check it out low monks.

[*juggleblood*]

I'm glad to hear that. I'm always open to suggestions on making areas more playable.

on firenewts, it plays out great for other classes as is. I've played it myself and really enjoyed it. I wonder if quicklings could be tweaked into a proving area for low level monks. As it is, it's kindof a death-trap for low levelers I think.