grouping problems

[Toxis]

Well Splork got to finally see first hand the group chaos failure tonight and he said it was better on reboot, thank you Rick.

Cloud [Wa:0.29 629hp 52ma 259mv] (-6 ac, -5 when he lost holy shield)

Cloud was on the front line and was lit and was taking as much damage as the tank was. He couldn't sanc self, so with the lite, and all the heals, he was draining tons of mana. We all came up with an idea that people could protect 1 person (until person died, quit, or protector changed his protect) Protector took 40% damage, protectee took 60%. You could protect only if on front line and could protect someone else on the front line, or in the back. Sort of like a buddy buddy system fighting shoulder to shoulder. (By the way, he was the only other warrior other than the tank for quite some time.)

Casters in back row have been getting bashed so badly, we were hoping bashes could help some of this. For example, earlier thief stabbed, I webbed the mob and instantly started getting bashed by the mob. One round went by, and I typed group to see the group. You'd think after one round you could see the group, but no. Two rounds went by.. ok, still being bashed and in lag. Three rounds went by, someone died, then the group list came up. I didn't even have a chance to see if someone needed healed.

I can't heal tank, check group to see who to heal that's low, and get bashed over and over. I got so frustrated, I just said "who wants group" to which no one stepped up and group ended. So do the math and figure up what needs fixed. I have fun grouping when groups rock, but when you're lagged beyond belief because you're in the back row and getting bashed, and 1 person on the front line is getting 90% of what tank doesn't get hit with, screw it. I don't want to lead.

I just logged on:

These are the groups:
Joesmoe is leading 'The Boisterous Fellowship' on Thordfalan:
(Wa:1.33) Joesmoe
(Th:2.30) Hounds

Rallaster is leading 'The Dangerous Crew' on Valkyre:
(Ne:0.01) Rallaster
(Immortal) Chobbs

Ta is leading 'Ta's Fearless Fellowship' on Niebelung:
(Ma:2.33) Ta
(Wa:1.35) Badden
(Wa:1.35) Rogue

Filariel is leading 'The Fearsome Hunters' on Thordfalan:
(Ma:2.32) Filariel
(Th:2.33) Jintana

[Toxis]

I would strongly recommend for a quick fix get rid of front and back lines and use old group style, only make protects all automatic like s3, except protects are automatic.. Things seemed to work pretty good back then unless somone lost link and fled when hit, or didn't all up. I think it would solve a lot. Everyone on one line, it just doesn't work with a mud so small atm.

So, get rid of front/back lines. Make protecting automatic.

-Toxis

[*Splork*]

I think your entirely forgetting that protects were not automatic and it could take up to half an hour to simply setup a group before. Now take into account half the mud is newbies and my guess is starting a group and keeping it going would be even worse. The first 3 months of this sloth clearly showed how much easier grouping and exp is when its done correctly.


We are not removing front and back lines.

As for finally seeing group collapsing, Ive seen it from the beginning. I fixed it for small groups quite awhile ago and the change is in for larger groups.

As for one person getting hit 90% of the non tank hits, it should of been obvious months ago the mobs choose the weakest players. When this happens over and over with the same player and you know that player is being targeted, might be in everyone's best interest and try to replace him with somebody else...

I hear this complaint every time a group starts and doesn't have enough front non casters to fill out a front line. The new change should help solve some of that. Its not going to remove it entirely nor should it.

I miss the days when I could log in here and constantly throw temper tantrums:)

Enjoy,
Splork

[Acedia]

"I can't heal tank, check group to see who to heal that's low, and get bashed over and over."

No one person should be able to do everything, nor should they have to. That's why it's a group mud. Mobs can only bash one person, so the other folks have to pick up the slack. Learn which mobs bash, and assign a 2.healer just in case, or have the little healers stay on their toes. Get a dsancer to save your precious heal mana.

Or we can whine about how the system is unfair. That random generator took my other characters, now it's back for me!


"... and 1 person on the front line is getting 90% of what tank doesn't get hit with..."

That sounds a lot like 2.tank. Oops, I mean front/back line is unfair.

Nice group list. Is it possible folks are doing other things than just BH exp?

[Thraxas]

[quote="*Splork*":34nuqvkr]As for one person getting hit 90% of the non tank hits, it should of been obvious months ago the mobs choose the weakest players. When this happens over and over with the same player [/quote:34nuqvkr]

I like the front row back row thing, but have been on the receiving end of the getting 90% of the non point hits thing, what I find frustrating is losing 90%+ of my hp in first round of combat (through sanc) manning back to heal up next time I look the leader has moved me forward again, next fight repeat and despite tells and grouptells it keeps going on. I've left the last 2 groups I joined precisely for this reason.
(I think as a caster prime in the front row the code may be skewed towards seeing me as an easy target)

I don't group often, but when I do I like to hope the leader dosen't play fast and loose with risking people dying.

(Name of group leader withheld because I know that other than the above they lead good groups that give all members a good yield of xp).

[Toxis]

Ok, think about this... a year down the road we have a great group going, tough warriors in the front who are badass, we have a few clerics and mages in the back... and a thief who gets hit a LOT because he has a couple ac and a few hp less than the other tanks in the front. Yeah... better put the thief in the back row and have a tank lead with curse.

There's a difference between taking 400 damage in 3 rounds than 1000 in 3 rounds (not lit). I think you might want to go back and rethink the targetting system and hack it out of the code.

Thankya,
Tox

[Medios]

How does a mob know which player is weakest. This is a bit absurd. First of all many monsters are not smart and just randomly hit stuff. Secondly even players don't have a skill that tells them which mobs are tougher when your already in combat. Sure you can consider something but we all know that this tells you little if anything.

I just don't see how monsters can be smart enough and knowledgeable enough to attack the weakest front line member. I have played sloth for 15 years and I still don't know all the mobs or know which is weakest if a group of them attacked me. The ones that I do know are from sheer experience as a leader and not "just because".

[*Splork*]

Not all mobs are like this, the smarter mobs act smarter than they did in 3 and we( admin ) like it this way, and we would rather it doesn't change.

Kj's calculations take tons of things into account such as level of the player, prime class, hps, armorclass, etc.

We hear all the time from players that sometimes we try to bring too much reality into the game and we need to back off that this is a fantasy game.

Well I will use the same argument against your's medios. This is a fantasy game and some mobs are simply smarter than others. This hasn't been a major issue and it isn't now, it simply makes the game a little more exciting and yeah, probably more difficult sometimes.

Mobs do things players can not do and players can do things mobs can not do. It has always been this way and there is no way around it.

There are several ways to beat this system but nobody has taken the time to even explore them. People really didn't even know it was happening until I said so, so this is just silly to me. I could say Ive removed it and nobody would even know because they didn't even know it existed in the first place!!!

Enjoy,
Splork

[Toxis]

The thing that bugs me the most is being bashed for 3 to 5 minutes while I'm in the back row trying to heal. A good tank has 800 to 1000 hp, and getting hit 200 to 400 damage per round, the person is gonna die.

Is this a bug or was this the plan?

And are all mobs bashing now?

-Toxis

[*Splork*]

There have been no changes to bash or mobs using it, they are the same ones from sloth3 at the same rates as used in S3.

Splork

[Rigwarl]

Mobs also bash tanks before engaging other players, fun stuff!

-Rig

[*Splork*]

Oh yeah I did add that one sorry:)

Splork

[Toxis]

Being bashed for 3 rounds while trying to heal is harsh, especially when normally there aren't many healers seriously.

[*juggleblood*]

I'm trying to follow this, but I have to confess I haven't been playing enough.

What is the current ratio of front row to back row?

Basically your complaint is that you have a hard time filling out the front row because the mobs attack the weakest link and therefore front liners need to be tanks basically?

I'm sure the balance issues can be worked out. Please stop suggesting drastic revisions of the combat system. There's no going back as it was a pretty severe code change. Besides that, it was an obvious success from the beginning. The players loved it: not to mention the amount of time KJ and Splork have invested in it.

The difficulty can be tweaked to some reasonable balance I'm sure. It's good that you are able to raise these issues on behalf of the mortals, but perhaps it'd be better via email so as not to get people so riled up.

edit:
The suggestion of a very limited protect skill sounded interesting tho. Is there any kind of limited protect in the game at the moment? I feel like such a noob these days...

[Rigwarl]

I, much to the dismay of tox, actually like this sense of unpredictability.

I suppose it may carry some weight since I usually rake in well over 30-40 deaths weekly.


-Rig