Re: order changes for shifted druids

[Deju]

Hi -

I understand the change that keeps shifted players from ordering followers... i dont like it, but i understand it

However, that said... I have a problem with the fact the the Juju almost ALWAYS disengages when a shifted player attacks a mob the Juju is already killing. So if i order the juju to kill sash, then shift and join in the killing, the juju stops fighting the sash. How am I to get the juju to engage again? In the middle of a fight, am i supposed to shift return, order the juju to fight, then shift back? To me, this seems a little silly.

Perhaps this is just a bug, I don't know. But if this is by design, it combined with the new order changes seem overly harsh.

Just curious if this was overlooked, or if its by design.

Thanks,

Deju/Scrugg

[12345]

If I read the announcement correctly, it was changed so that you can't be shifted and use undead followers at the same time, so I think that's by design. However, I think that's why order lag and order failure rates and such were added as well, so having both in the game does seem rather harsh.

[kjartan]

We took out most of the order lag when we made the change to disallow ordering of undead followers.

I don't know why the juju disengages; does he disengage if you don't attack the sash but just stand there, shifted or not? I wonder if somehow the code that was supposed to keep mobs from fighting each other is getting mistakenly applied to the juju.

By the way, we're working on fleshing out nature's familiar. It won't be as good as summon undead, but I am adding another half dozen or so mobs that are better than treants, some mobile, some rooted. We're also going to add the requirement that to cast it you must be somewhere with greenery, which means either one of the forest-type terrains or else at least have a 'brambles' or 'canopied arbor' effect. And we'll be changing the name of the spell, probably to 'awaken', but you won't need to relearn it.

Also, I noticed that the 'summon undead' mobs that require 2x40 or 3x40 for necros don't start counting forties with your necro class (like supplication) but count all your forties - I am going to change this, which I think is probably how it was originally intended, which means an avatar Necro-fourth won't have access to the top few summon undead mobs any longer, only necro primes will ever get the full list.

[Leaf]

[quote="*kjartan*":2xnmz61v]
By the way, we're working on fleshing out nature's familiar. It won't be as good as summon undead, but I am adding another half dozen or so mobs that are better than treants, some mobile, some rooted.[/quote:2xnmz61v]

Suggestion ... Rock Golem to Iron Golem!!! DIABLO 2 LOD!!!

[quote="*kjartan*":2xnmz61v]
Also, I noticed that the 'summon undead' mobs that require 2x40 or 3x40 for necros don't start counting forties with your necro class (like supplication) but count all your forties - I am going to change this, which I think is probably how it was originally intended, which means an avatar Necro-fourth won't have access to the top few summon undead mobs any longer, only necro primes will ever get the full list.[/quote:2xnmz61v]

I can see alot of ppl with Necro in class order bitch about this one ...
Just like when Mages/Clerics had Summon undead taken away. They
should have access to those mobs, cause of the lvl they have...

[Deju]

ok, i did some further testing:

in all cases, i ordered juju to kill sash first.

not shifted, just stood there: juju fights
shifted, just stood there: juju fights
not shifted, jumped into fight: juju fights
shifted, jumped into fight: juju disengages

So it seems like only when a shifted player gets into the fight is when the juju disengages.

If there is anything i can do to help you diagnose it further, i'd be happy to help.

Thanks,

Deju/Scrugg

[Lis]

[quote="Leaf":3i4vrrs0]

[quote="*kjartan*":3i4vrrs0]
Also, I noticed that the 'summon undead' mobs that require 2x40 or 3x40 for necros don't start counting forties with your necro class (like supplication) but count all your forties - I am going to change this, which I think is probably how it was originally intended, which means an avatar Necro-fourth won't have access to the top few summon undead mobs any longer, only necro primes will ever get the full list.[/quote:3i4vrrs0]

I can see alot of ppl with Necro in class order bitch about this one ...
Just like when Mages/Clerics had Summon undead taken away. They
should have access to those mobs, cause of the lvl they have...[/quote:3i4vrrs0]

Necro-not prime already have less Undead Control cap, so already weaker summons.

Next thing will be not to allow Druid-noprimes to have all list of forms?

[Guinex]

When I order my undead to attack, and i just stand there I allways get sucked in and one drops out, this goes for the same if I just use a juju.

[kjartan]

Ok, I'll have to get back to you on the disengage thing.

On second thought, scratch that business about necro non-primes losing undeads. Here's what I want to change: I don't want a Necro 4th to get several undeads all at once when he hits 40. I'll look at ways of handling this that don't end up totally losing access to a bunch of undeads. In fact it's tempting to apply the same reasoning to supplication, I'm not all that enamored of prime-only stuff.

Maybe something along the lines of counting an extra "40" at av 10, 20, and 30 so even if you're necro 4th, at avatar 30 you get the 4x40 undead. That would mean necro 3rd and 4th still lost the one topmost undead (swordwraith maybe?), but otherwise everybody can eventually get everything.

[Rynquald]

[quote:57bol4wp]Maybe something along the lines of counting an extra "40" at av 10, 20, and 30 so even if you're necro 4th, at avatar 30 you get the 4x40 undead. That would mean necro 3rd and 4th still lost the one topmost undead (swordwraith maybe?), but otherwise everybody can eventually get everything.[/quote:57bol4wp]

That would *rock* if you applied it to supp (i could even just about cope with shift being like that since i'm druid second )


EDIT: Thanks for considering adding to nature's familiar btw.

[blackmore]

[quote="*kjartan*":1ndi356n]Also, I noticed that the 'summon undead' mobs that require 2x40 or 3x40 for necros don't start counting forties with your necro class (like supplication) but count all your forties - I am going to change this, which I think is probably how it was originally intended, which means an avatar Necro-fourth won't have access to the top few summon undead mobs any longer, only necro primes will ever get the full list.[/quote:1ndi356n]

I have no clue why you'd think that it was "originally intended" that way. The concept of levels after the class with the spell was never raised until you created supplication, so as far as we know (we of course don't know private conversations), that concept was never conceived of until then. Every other spell before supplication with level requirements used total levels, including shapeshift. There have been many adjustments made to both spells that if they were originally meant to work differently than they do, it would have been noticed a long, long time ago.

[kjartan]

My memory of the multi-40 mobs for summon undead is that they appeared after supplication and were intended to be along the same lines as supplication. The supplication setup works better in the sense that you get the mobs in a progression, not in-a-progression-or-all-at-once-depending-on-classo.

[blackmore]

Since my last post is already outdated (sort of)...

[quote="*kjartan*":lpfffxh9]Here's what I want to change: I don't want a Necro 4th to get several undeads all at once when he hits 40.[/quote:lpfffxh9]

Yeah, I can definitely respect that.

[quote="*kjartan*":lpfffxh9]
Maybe something along the lines of counting an extra "40" at av 10, 20, and 30 so even if you're necro 4th, at avatar 30 you get the 4x40 undead. That would mean necro 3rd and 4th still lost the one topmost undead (swordwraith maybe?), but otherwise everybody can eventually get everything.[/quote:lpfffxh9]

Without really knowing much about summons, it still seems like that would cause a huge reduction in the methods certain players are using to play their character, and it doesn't seem like that's healthy. I may be overstating the issue, though, since there's only 3 undeads 3x40 or higher.

[Medios]

It seems to me that undead control eq takes care of the undeads. Removing followers is almost like saying that non mage primes cant use firestorm anymore. Supplicants dont have any sort of eq so its understandable about the placement of cleric in the class.

Can druids order supplicants while shifted? I dont shift and havent gotten anyone to test it, but it seems to me this follower is from your god, why wouldnt it listen to you?

Lets talk about overpower. I remember the days when we used to get 4 liches and really kill some big mobs. I tell u what, 4 liches will eat 2 swordwraiths for dinner. That was removed and only necros were allowed to summon/animate. Now players have found out how to kill the bigger mobs again using soul infusions/animates/mobs fighting each other. So were back to square one. It seems to me if you didnt want players soloing then you shouldnt have put any followers in at all, removed the liches and left it at that. Ill have to agree with the point shadis brings up time and again. Solo chars on sloth will be nerfed. It happened to thieves back in the day and its happening to druids/necros now.

I tend to feel that you can take any classo out there, even the quad nc. Allow someone like rick, strider, annie, or anyone in my guild for that matter to play it and you will have an overpowered char. I dont remember a character that rick played that someone hasnt bitched about. Its not so much the class as the ability and the mud knowledge of the player. If this is a way to make everyone make new characters all the time just come out and say it.

Mike

PS I hate the push to make every char wear ac. In traditional d&d it makes no sense at all. With the new druid/necro nerf do you think more ppl will be shifting, or remaking chars with bard or something to wear ac to order.

[dezakin]

[quote:26nlivb8]Without really knowing much about summons, it still seems like that would cause a huge reduction in the methods certain players are using to play their character, and it doesn't seem like that's healthy. I may be overstating the issue, though, since there's only 3 undeads 3x40 or higher.[/quote:26nlivb8]
Not really understating it. the 4x25 forms are essentially useless. Demiliches have no ac and allways bind/damn even if bound/damned. Phantoms have less hp than banshees and their pseudo blind proc is a joke that is very probably nullified by fog anyways.

And with zukt I've been looking forward to swords because zukt has no cleric, and without cleric he cant stone/iron his pets the way everyone else with cleric/bard/mage can. Given all the red potions mysteriously disappeared from the game, this would be even more painful.

[kjartan]

If the intermediate forms are actually useless for some reason, I'd like to fix that. (Note this applies to undeads, not to supps - I deliberately designed some of the supps to be pretty useless, and others aren't finished yet.) I'll have a look at the demilich proc for starters.

Right at the moment we are having some stability issues so I am not working on this stuff; I'll get back to it this weekend probably.