Clerics-My Opinion

[kjartan]

[quote="Skar":3b92adkf]Well
all avatars have cleric and only 1 person above me doesn't.
out of the 54 playing there are 5 people including myself who do not have cleric in their classo so akasha you're about right

let's all play cleric and then we can make a nice little movie and wear skirts and dance in unison to the cinderella theme song.[/quote:3b92adkf]

I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but cleric primes can't dance worth crap. It gets worse as they get higher level. So they aren't THAT great. (You might think I'm kidding, but try it yourself.)

[12345]

Just to give you an idea what you're working with...

If you consider that 18 dex is -4.0 AC and stone skin is -3.0 AC, that's a huge bonus to any character. If you don't have this -7.0 AC, finding ways to compensate gets interesting.

If you check the eq list, most stat equipment costs you something. Most +dex equipment will be at least -.2 AC off from the best AC for that type of gear... some held lights, a couple headgear and a tough forge shield I think are some exceptions.

If you have a dex of say... 13, you'll have to get 5 dex items to get that 4 AC, at a cost of about -.2 each, or -1.0 total. This is why a lot of folks will roll for high dex. It's easier to maximize AC with high dex than low.

Cleric has sanc, heals, stone skin and a lot of other self presevation stuffs. Stone skin is 11 cleric and 17 mage. If you don't have either of those classes... bone armor isn't too bad, but it can break. If you have mage, you lose sanc and healing, if you have necro, you have wall of flesh and infusions, which are fairly weak healing comparitively. Druids have some healing, AC through forms, fluidity, which is a fairly weak replacement for sanc, and no AC spells.

If you're missing cleric, mage and necro, you can still get armor with bard, or buy lots and lots of red potions, but you're permanently short -1.0 unless you can get someone to keep casting stone skin on you. Not to mention you're not going to have iron skin at avatar, which will be another -1.0 someday.

If you're soloing, you have to play tank to some extent (unless you're splorking/winding) so having as much AC as possible is a pretty good plan. If you're a group char, you can afford to run with positive AC... but that's another topic.

Since newbies don't usually have the advantage of passing down equipment from higher chars, getting AC through equipment can be slow and having spells/stats that you can make use of naturally is a great boon.

Moral: Having cleric helps you stay alive and is probably the easiest way for a newbie. Cleric itself isn't an overly powerful class, and living without it is quite possible, but there is no other class that focuses on healing/protective magic. If you don't have it, you may have classes that can compensate for it, or you may have a playstyle that doesn't involve you getting hit, be it through group play, carrying a ton of recalls, or having a splorking/winding type character.

I don't know if that makes things clearer or muddier... but I hope it helps.

[Skar]

now that is a helpful post...
that one and avatar's suggestion to get eq for heal and make it as good as a gheal were the most important things in this forums, i wish all the other posts had been helpful

[Malison]

Those of you who consider anyone under 3x40 to be a complete newbie, you can stop reading now.
Those who look for important lessons in a post, you might also want to stop reading now.

A while ago, I created a character named Doom. Doom is a Warrior Monk Necro Druid, with levels of 30 20 18 12. He runs at -8 AC because of bone armor, and will someday become an incredible tank because of wall of flesh / wraithform / fluidity / dmg reduction / -10/11 ac. Until the nerfing of goodberries, he never had any problems keeping himself healed while soloing, and was able to run catacombs for xp all day without any regen. Admittedly, catacombs isn't the best place for xp at his level, but constantly running has to count for something.
Doom is a decent character with pretty high potential, despite the lack of both cleric and mage classes. His soloing will be pathetic for pretty much all time because of not having supplication, good healing spells, and good blasting spells, although hopefully necro followers will soon be some recompense for that. Still, I don't think anyone will complain if he's the first person to show up for a group (at least once he reaches 2x40 and can get -10/11 ac)

Really, important classes are all about how you want to play. If you're all about soloing fast xp, then you practically need Mage and Cleric, and probably Thief or Monk. A group character, all that really matters is that you can protect, although Clerics are generally more welcome than anything except 1.tanks. If you don't care how fast you run, and find it amusing that you can read the forums or whatever else while you run, try out a classo like Doom's.

For a newbie, you should really have cleric in your classo just like Ender said, mostly because of EQ. Doom only survives because I've got multiple other characters whose gear he plundered.

To submit something to the stat discussion,
Malison 40mage 40cleric 37monk 20bard 14 18 17 17 13 (sum=79)
has no problems running mansion or shadow keep, just like every other mage or monk from 2x40 to 4x40/5, but hasn't levelled in 3 weeks because his gear is mostly patchwork
Doom 30warrior 20monk 18necro 12druid 18/32 7 16 18 18 (sum=77)
will be able to get -7 without spells by 2x40. levels at most once/day
Previous 30cleric 25warrior 17mage 6thief 18/32 17 18 16 15 (sum=84)
soloes similar to Doom, despite higher stat total by 7. Levelled something like twice/month, maybe three times
Ele 36warrior 23cleric 22mage 11thief 16 13 15 15 14 (sum=73)
soloes significantly worse than Doom, despite higher levels, levelled at most once/month
Klein 20thief 15warrior 8druid 3necro 18/18 13 11 18 15 (sum=75)
can't solo anything, has terrible ac, levels at most once/month
Major 14thief 10necro 7mage 4monk 15 17 11 17 11 (sum=71)
soloes about half of valk, rarely regens because of level restores, levels at least once/hour (take into account levels, but still...)

[nomis]

[quote="*Akasha*":1xg1kei4]Two people come to mind:

[40w 40o 40n 40d 8a] Zukt the Golem

[40n 40d 40t 40o 13a] Eneac 10110011 [Lyme]

Not very successful at this game are they? Poor guys, seems after a combined total of almost 18 years on this game someone would have told them it was impossible to play this game without cleric in classo.

It's a little more difficult without cleric, but its not a requirement. If you couldn't play this game without cleric, then the other 7 classes need some serious work. Hell, why not just be a single class mud, with a single class to choose from... Let's all be clerics![/quote:1xg1kei4]

Would love if someone could show me a char w/out druid/cleric. Sapient comes to mind, but how many others?

[nomis]

Sapient's last logon was Tue Jun 14 22:30:15 2005

[40b 40d 40m 40w 13a] Sapient

Then again, I'm wrong.

So, as far as I know:
[40n 40m 40w 28b] Nomis found another precious crested spellbook

LOL...

[Wintersdark]

[quote="Skar":1ec5gwwx]Well
all avatars have cleric and only 1 person above me doesn't.
out of the 54 playing there are 5 people including myself who do not have cleric in their classo so akasha you're about right

let's all play cleric and then we can make a nice little movie and wear skirts and dance in unison to the cinderella theme song.[/quote:1ec5gwwx]

heh well, there's a good reason why *MOST* of the avatars have Cleric in their classo, Skar. Until (comparatively) recently, the only classes were warrior/mage/thief/cleric. As you had four classes in your classo, and there only were four... you kinda had to have each Thus, most avatars - chars who have been around a long time - use the "old school" classos

Don't need cleric. I think it would be very difficult to play without cleric OR Druid - that's just asking for a rough ride - but still certainly not impossible.

[impz]

[quote="Skar":28yk60aa]tells you 'What's your nat stats?'

'14 18 16 14 15'

tells you 'Well... I'd create another char'

'lol, i'm not'

tells you 'The first thing is to put Cl in classo'
tells you ''cause it's absalutely impossible to play without cleric levels...'
tells you 'And the second thing - it's good idea to roll stats with triangles, since they are easier to pop'

'lol i like my stats, best i've gotten so far

tells you 'Your stats aren't good'
tells you 'I have 17 17 16 16 15'
tells you 'I call it playable'
tells you 'Well...'
tells you 'You have 14 dex nat'
(more talk about stats)skip>
tells you 'Now scan eq list please and tell me if you can see the way of getting -9 before 3x40 with your classo and
stats'
(skip for my privacy. lol)

'i shouldn't have to be a cleric to play this game successfully'

tells you 'You won't ever learn until you've learned how to play this game'
tells you 'And you won't ever learn this until you do something except running with exp groups '

tells you 'Hehe.... You HAVE to be a cleric to play this game successfully'

well now, maybe this is the reason i started the topic huh?

this is most of a conversation, i left out a part or two because i don't feel like being laughed at. anymore than i already am.

and now i'll wait for you guys to flame him, or me for posting this

~~Skar[/quote:28yk60aa]

For skar, i can't see how that is offensive or anything in the first place. If that could offend you, it's strange why you want advice in the first place. Anyway, what wintersdark said it's true. The 4 new classes have been added only pretty recent the past year. Hence most players who are avatars have cleric due to the old classo.

I would say that zukt (who has no cleric) is still able to solo somehow even without cleric levels. He does admit that sometimes it can be hard but i do see him solo some reasonable xps these days.

Cleric is definitely a good classo for a new player (i guess that's the reason why that person advice you to have cleric), but once you get the hang of it, it's not completely unplayable without a cleric. That's what i feel.

[Medios]

A major part of this game is testing new styles and areas. Alot of people will complain its impossible to play without cleric, or that cleric primes suck. I tend to disagree with both of these statements. I know a few cleric primes that run in -10 and use pit fiend to solo much larger mobs than my thief mage.

As far as healing or aegis is concerned, necros get wall of flesh and then flesh golem at avatar which can move about 13 rooms to my estimation. Druids get greater fluidity. Unless you plan on running all over this is plenty. One thing I dont think people realize is this. Druids must shift to fight. While shifted you cannot cast any spells other than the ones dedicated to your form. When shited your natural stats mean 0. Dragon form has bleed which is a form of combat healing. Druid coupled with necro has just about everything you could ever want. Bone armor, wall of flesh, high mana regen, good shifted forms, fluidity, elemental resistance, spectral shield, followers etc etc etc. If you want to say its impossible to play without either cleric, druid, necro or bard, well this means your limited to mage, monk, warrior, and thief. Very few would take that classo, monk and thief are almost useless unless your thief prime. If your a new player spend some time learning what certain spells/skills do then make a char accordingly. Some classes complement each other much better than others.

I bet I can make any classo and have a viable char. Dont get me started on quad non caster, thats very hard but still functional. Bards get cry of the avatar which imho is just as powerful as firewind, watch out it has area effect. Monk and thief have backstab/deathgrip with focus and singing gods of war, look out. Avatar monks can rest with contemplation and regen 200+ hp per tick. This effectively reduces the need for healing to regen. I have often fled from mobs and slept a few minutes to regain mana/hp then go back in to fight. Dont get stuck in the same old, backstab firewind mentality. There are many ways to get around the old thief/mage style. With the new charms and the old brews anyone can have sanc potions/charms. Cycle for the shards and ask your friendly neighborhood Minstrel.

The bottom line is , you need to figure out what your good at. If you dont have cleric maybe you need to plan your runs a little better. If your only making 20m an hour as an avatar maybe you need to rethink your eq. Running around in -1 gear and full healbonus isnt very smart for soloing. While this is very powerful in groups, it will just get you killed when you solo. Armor class effects alot of things in this game, and not only tanks need it. I run at -8 which is often a point of humor. I compensate for this by running with the maximum damage and spelldamage i can find. Dead mobs deal no damage. If your a cleric dont try running thief xp. If your a thief dont kill nostab. Its all laid out. There are now nogrip mobs and noshift areas. This should help to balance out the xp tables for chars that dont have backstab/deathgrip/shifting.

I think Autolycos was smoking crack when he says he can solo 150m an hour (2.5m per minute gimme a break). He might 2 man that much with a powerful mage, but not solo. Medios can solo about 80m an hour if im lucky. With the old alignment and having a eudaemon I may have seen 150m a few times but those areas are so dangerous you will die and corpse eventually , lowering your xp.

PS I dont think non clerics can get healbonus, the cap would be 0 right?

PSS Flame on!

[Avatar]

I agree with everything Medios said. I've got a 40 avatar cleric prime with -10 ac, and use pit fiend sometimes. It's not a matter of how many xp's per hour I get, I've never counted that on any of my characters...pit fiend is just fun to run with.

I've also got Rizzen who is now an teenie avatar cleric prime. He's not used for solo, but has been very useful during groups. Blinds with Weakens, spectral, currently 700+ mana while wearing all the healbonus eq I could find. Eventually with the addition of an AC mode he may solo, but all the levels he's gained have been grouping.

So my input, cleric prime is useful and I find it fun. If you want to run without cleric it's possible and might be an interesting challenge. I intend to do it eventually. There are some challenges that are built into the game, collecting eq, popping spellbooks, levelling like mad. It's fine that some of the players focus on those, but other players like to play with their own challenges. Highest exp/hour, largest mob killed solo, shadow chars, Frost's version of a shadow char, playing without cleric. These are all options for players who want to give them a try, but of course experienced players are going to find them easier to attempt.

Most of us would suggest that newbies play with cleric in the classo, just the same as we'd suggest that newbies level all 4 of their classes rather then trying a shadow character as their first character.

[Avatar]

I forgot to mention, Medios, we tested with a char with no cleric in classo and the runed onyx seemed to make his heals do 110. I don't have an explanation.

I've heard theories that the healbonus max's would be 90/70/50/30, though I haven't been able to verify even one of those yet. Also, I had heard that some eq may contribute to healbonus/spellbonus but not apply to the limit. That might be only applied to quest eq, maybe not applied at all. Anyway, maybe the lowest healbonus limit (~30) is the max for all characters with or without cleric class. Maybe characters without cleric don't have a limit at all, though the fact that most healbonus eq has cleric restrictions (or cleric-prime restrictions even) would make that hard to test.

I vote for more healbonus eq.

[madmax]

[quote:12jch2jp]I've heard theories that the healbonus max's would be 90/70/50/30, though I haven't been able to verify even one of those yet[/quote:12jch2jp]

I can verify cleric prime capps healbonus at 90. I have +100 healbonus eq on madmax and i can remove one runed oynx and the cap message remains, remove 15 and the cap message is no longer there.

Max

[brand]

so whats the cap message?

[12345]

You have reached the peak of your potential for healing.

[Avatar]

Argh, envy. It's too bad that it requires quest eq to hit max healbonus. Please add more healbonus eq! Anyways, congrats Madmax!