The new classes are overpowered.

[Guinex]

Correct me if im wrong, but all ive gotten out of this thread is that old classo chars suck in comparison to new classos. I think the resolution is make a new character.

[12345]

Actually, going over this, a few things have come to mind. For starters, was Charles' point about the heals causing a damned fortune to blast with. However, there's no such thing as a full restore spell or a full life spell. I'm not sure how clerics managed to avoid getting a prime healing ability?!? Aerial servant and dark mace are great, but really really don't fit the class much. Example:

Demi-Restore: Restores half the hit points of the target.

Now you have a spell! Not only can it be used as a unique heal in groups that outweighs Druid and other primes, it can be used to shaft down undead as a attack effect. Cast once, mob takes xxx damage, or, if it fails save, loses half it's remaining hps (this will need a cap, of course). A couple casts and you can chop down some undead for fun and profit. No different really than the Warriors weak +hit mobs, the thieves weak hp mobs or the mage ethers.

Suddenly, you have solo options and something that makes you stand out in groups. And just like everyone else, you have areas that you can do well in for xp and coins and areas that get killed in.

BTW Charles: killing a 10 mil mob is rough for me as well since I don't have any blasting (Bit). She likes the catacombs despite the fact she's far outgrown them. I don't know Dark Dreams enough to really know if it's a good area for her to solo, or at what levels. At this point, I'm just trying to come up with suggestions that won't be immediately dismissed as complete overpower. Still not sure what to do about the old school types who are stuck with warrior and thief though...

[Avatar]

Active discussion, I like it.

Zing - if we get new cleric-style items I'd try to avoid using the weapon slot. Dark mace is nice, anything else for that slot would conflict with using the mace.

Krok - you're saying you have all the in-game +heal eq and you still can't reach the cap? You don't see a problem with that? The increased cap is one of the benefits of playing a cl-prime. Plus, clerics don't start at 5x40. Smaller chars need some accessible +heal eq.

Elsie - devotion - all the bad aspects of alignment rolled into a new skill? Who wants to be limited to only killing good mobs for a week?

Guinex - I don't think we're focused on new class vs. old class. I think most of us agree that the new skills for thief, mage, and especially warrior have recently upgraded those classes. I don't know how they compare now, but if you see Splork's message below you can see the recent changes to the cleric class...or lack thereof.

[Aleksey]

A necro prime 1x40 can solo stuff that 5x40 cannot?
hm... and what that stuff looks like?
or who that 5x40?
I cannot cycle(can kill) only one mob that my necro newb was able to cycle close to 2x40 but its my personal sloth Nemezida, havent found way to cycle him yet.

[13]

Let's see some cleric titties!

Seriously cl/dr is super dirty, forget about if they're cl/dr/ma/ba.

I agree with higher-cap self heal, that would be ******' rad.

[Medios]

Krok can solo bigger mobs than Medios. Its a proven fact, theres no disputing it, nobody can argue. Medios is Th/Ma with -8 25 damage about 20stabdam and 25 spelldam. Krok is running with -10ac maxed in spelldam and swole on healb. She uses what skills she has to get the job done. I choose to wear max damage and take the ac hit. She runs in -10 and spelldam. Her pit fiend is tough. My supplicants suck for fighting, its not even worth making them just wastes mana. Eudaemon is cool but the first good mob i splork its gone, and I have to do a run of et or pyramid to get the rabbit back.

The new classes were already in game when I returned to sloth and I went ahead and got Medios to 40av. Then tired of "old schoo" I decided to make Minstrel. All I knew was that I already had a thief so I wanted to have a char that was pretty opposite. I had always heard people talk of leading with damn! Looking at the restricts on some eq I decided bards had it pretty good and went bard triple nc. I knew bards could sing to followers, and since clerics were nerfed I had to get necro. I also knew that druids had high mr outdoors and had a damage reduction spell that stacked with sanc.

So anyways messing around I made a Ba Dr Cl Ne. Played it some, getting really upset because I cant stab or grip and to fight it costs mana. Somehow pushed on to avatar and it all came together. Now im 40 av, just from playing this new char that was initially a huge pain in the ass. I know there are chars that can solo more xp , and kill bigger stuff than me but I dont mind. I have fun with my new char, and if something like druid forms gets nerfed, i got my old schooler to fall back on.

Basically I feel that if your current char is irritating or makes you angry start a new char. Youll be surprised who will help you get over the hump. If I get down on Minstrel, its refreshing to be able to get in Medios and go splork 1m worth of coins. Im not saying do like Will or Brad and play 100 diff chars. Just use all the overpowers that you talk about to your benefit. If necro primes are so damn strong, why dont you have one? Dont argue with me that its a waste of time to start a new char. You're already wasting time playing.

1 Its frustrating and hard to play without cleric somewhere in class.
2 Some classes arent as powerful soloers.
3 Have another char to switch it up every once in awhile.
4 Dont let slothmud ruin your day.

Mike

[Malison]

about infusing souls (mentioned earlier), they really don't compare with heal spells. You only infuse after the mob is dead, which is often too late for the healing, and even then it has to be a strongish mob to give you the 100+hp soul, otherwise you get some 20-30hp junk greater soul infusion.

for some pro-cleric...
while they are poor at soloing, it is, as has been stated, a ridiculous support class. in groups Malison usually runs as a cleric despite being mage prime just because healing is so much more valuable.

and you can't deny how much more powerful a healing spell is in soloing than trying to stay alive with vampiric touch


I believe the original forum issue was that old classes are weak in relation to new classes. In some extents that's very true. But going down the who list while writing this, you notice that there is not a single player on who is 4x new classo. So obviously there's something to be said for old classes

[*Splork*]

This is one of the more useful threads in the last month+. What I find intriguing is...the topic of conversation has quickly gone from all the new classes being overpowered compared to old to the problem with cleric primes. Which again, leads me to believe the majority of people feel as I do, this is the most balanced we have been in years:) There are so many great classos right now that its actually fun for me to watch players mature such as Nab or Kronk.

But anyways, the post Medios just made was perfect. The game will always need tweaks, nerfs, additions, etc. Find a character, play it, and enjoy. If your one of the better players such as thirteen, medios, etc( or even if you aren't), pick a classo that nobody else picks and give it a good kick in the ass. Chances are good that the character will be fun, powerful, and exciting.

In the meantime, expect a few adjustments for cleric primes. Again-nothing earth shattering. Out goal is not to create another great soloer. But to give them some versatility and maybe a little bit more enjoyment.

Enjoy,
Splork

[madmax]

My $.02 worth.

As a fellow Cleric Prime, I too feel the pain. I agree with alot of the discussion. Soloing is all but impossible for any decent xp.

Aerial Servant - Somewhat nice in groups to block that occassinal hit, but they still don't stand in front of you on a room proc or spelldamage. When using solo, if I'm hitting anything "big", it is dead in one round anyway.

Dark Mace - Yes, it is a kick ass weapon. if you are fighting undead, for the proc, and for the regen. But if you use it in conjunction with any of the other new skills, you can not use it. I.E. Deathblow, Gut, etc.

Supplicants - Frankly, I cant use them much. When I'm in a group, i normally get to +1000, once I start to solo anything, I become perma evil. Once this happens, eudaemon / peri are gone.. the only one that makes any sense as evil, (unless 5x40) is a xeg-yi. However, then i must deal with the order lag and frequently find myself dead beacuse of this. Any of the Hosers channel can easily comfirm this. When playing Jedediah, I use the Peri alot. makes alot of sense, but not for primes due to the alignment changes.

Maybe when good (+1000), and becoming evil from one kill of a good being (to -300) and the supplicant dissapears, if atonement is casted, the supplicant is returned immediately? This would help with the occasional kill.

If the "role of the cleric prime" is suppose to be a grouping not solo class,
fine, then give them some prime only spells / skills that mean something.

How bout :

Healing Aura - Mass Heal Spell, Level 40 Cl Prime. 90 mana

cast 'healing aura'

Creates a healing aura in the room where everyone in the room is healed by 100 hps (+healbonus eq)

Greater Healing Aura - Mass Greater Heal Spell, Avatar 15 (Cl Prime only) - 90 Mana

Works like healing aura, same cast, same mana, except greater heal is used. (+healbonus eq)

Mass Raise - Avatar Cl Prime 30 - For thoes Blaster Quests

Cost - 300 mana + 50% of maxhps.

Another one maybe,

Holy Touch Spell - Cleric Prime 37 - Cost Variable (100 min)

Heals the player to 90% of maximum hps
The caster must have an good alignment of (+1000 is best).
Healing up to 600 hps - 100 mana
Over 600 Hps to 800 hps - 150 mana
Over 800 Hps - 150 mana + 1/2 of the casters Maximum Hitpoints
(yes if not careful, the cleric could kill themselves)
Usage of this spell without thier alignment at +1000 would cause the HP damage on each cast, reguardless of HPS healed.

Raise Dead - I must thank the gods for instututing the XP for raising the dead, that was a nice additon for the cleric primes. In Blaster's quest, I think I made almost 40 Million XP from raises, (about 16 Mil I think was from Kronk alone However with all the raises, I couldn't hardley regen mana for heals and Moon Aura. Maybe Cleric Primes should get an inherent +shock value as well, say based on alignment? The better your alignment is, the more +shock you get from being good?

Avatar Bard gets Beacon of Fortune, seems this should be a Cleric Ability as well. It would be nice to be able to relocate directly to a dead player. Since it is not a song, why not?

I like the idea of a clasp to attach to the light that would make the cleric NOATTACK, meaning, mobs will not attack them AND they can not attack a mob. This would hopefully prevent misuse of the item.

I too have a large heal as many of you know. I wear +90 in healbonus eq in regen gear. My restores are not quite Kroks yet, but she has a couple avatar bonuses on me at the moment. I can easily heal myself up quickly but in Blasters quest last night, Daedalus could outheal me easily. Quite frequently in Minstrel's Desert Groups lately, even with the healbonus eq I have, I get put on Moon Aura duty, and back up healing. Daedalus's regen means the Cleric Primes are no longer 1.healo.

There is no way a cleric prime can compete with 800+ mana and like +90 mana regen standing. My maximum at 29 Avatar is 606 mana and +63 Ma regen.

I also like the idea of being able to mem up some healing spell, but this is kind of negated with the use of Bard Charms.

I too have created other characters and have almost quit trying to solo Madmax. It is just too hard to do any good. Without a Stab or a Grip, I have no large damage lead so I find myself making 4-5 mil/run maximum. With Jedediah, Th/Ba 2x40, I can solo for more xp than I can with Madmax. This is understandable, because the two characters are of completely different play styles.

Don't Get Frustrated, Just Have Multiple Characters

Madmax.

[Mystery]

I'm sure this base has already been covered but another cleric prime spell thats is heal based would be nice. I'm sure I'm not the only non-cleric prime char who would rather use their mana for spells/skills instead of being delegated as a backup healo. If I wanted to be healo i'd make a cleric prime.. saying that being backup healo is ok but it takes the fun out of being non-prime cleric.. so i'm all up for givign clerics more healing power.. let them heal so i can rely on my prime skills/spells.. if that makes sense

Maybe I should lay off the herb.. that kinda confuses me now that I read it

[Shyla]

I know this is JUST my opinion but what bothers me is a lot of these new warriors skills are made to require you to have a warrior weapon to use them and not all of us with warrior in our class use warrior weapons. It would be nice to see more warrior skills and maybe even thief skills put in that you could use with the old classes without trying to use their weapons. Clerics tend to use dark mace and if you have an old character like I do you can't use swordsmanship,deathblow,broadside. I mean these are great warrior skills but can we get more skills like this added that you can use with anyweapon like a bashskull skill where you can use a blunt weapon to do more damage? I love Shyla and I will never stop playing her, I am just saying it might be nice if the skills added could be used more universally with old character classes and not just be made more for primes. Yes I know if I changed weapons I can use them, but that isn't the point. It doesn't matter what I am wielding when I firewind or heal. I would just like to see more warrior skills put in that more of the old classes can get a benefit from. This is just MY 2 cents
shyla

[Avatar]

Max! Please don't base the new skills on forcing a cleric to maintain a good alignment! I want to actually use those evil supps eventually. Like necro's, some clerics would like to stay evil, that's the point of a cl/th!! Of course it takes someone quite insane to play a cl/th, but it can be fun.

[kjartan]

If you are getting too good to use the evil supplication mobs, that's very easy and quick to rectify. Heck, charm some innocent villager and bring him with you for instant alignment fixing! (It should really detect that and put you down to -2000 or something if you do that). Mob level doesn't affect negative alignment swings, only positive ones.

There are some supplication mobs that aren't done yet; they will be warrior types, like the pit fiend but less so. This discussion seems like a good reason for me to finish those up. Maybe this weekend.

The idea about atonement bringing back your lost supplication mob seems reasonable. How often does that happen? (If you actually only use atonement once in a blue moon, I don't think I'm going to bother. Although aesthetically it's a very nice feature, maybe I'll do it anyway.)

We may stack more enhancements on dark mace as you get more 40s.

[jezer]

[quote="shyla":2ltbjuhz]I know this is JUST my opinion but what bothers me is a lot of these new warriors skills are made to require you to have a warrior weapon to use them and not all of us with warrior in our class use warrior weapons. It would be nice to see more warrior skills and maybe even thief skills put in that you could use with the old classes without trying to use their weapons. Clerics tend to use dark mace and if you have an old character like I do you can't use swordsmanship,deathblow,broadside. I mean these are great warrior skills but can we get more skills like this added that you can use with anyweapon like a bashskull skill where you can use a blunt weapon to do more damage? I love Shyla and I will never stop playing her, I am just saying it might be nice if the skills added could be used more universally with old character classes and not just be made more for primes. Yes I know if I changed weapons I can use them, but that isn't the point. It doesn't matter what I am wielding when I firewind or heal. I would just like to see more warrior skills put in that more of the old classes can get a benefit from. This is just MY 2 cents
shyla[/quote:2ltbjuhz]

I know not to many people were dumb enough to have a classo that started with monk warrior, but shyla is right. Jezer fights bare handed and a lot of those new warrior skills are just useless. Warrior, to people without a sword, is practically a few hp's and crit hit/triple/toss. Don't get me started on how useful thief is for a 3rd class! Erm, pick locks... extremely useful :p Thank goodness I made Ecko.

[jezer]

The order lag for cleric supplicants is stupid!

I mean think about it... you have a pet to help you in battle, and you make it fight some mob and it negates combat rounds? I mean what are you doing in that combat round? Giving it a peticure? (No offence poodle :p) Letting it off its leash? I mean does it take a round in real life to order your dog to sit? I figured it would be more like yelling at your mutt to attack, hardly a round of combat. To some degree lag is justified on necro, cause those pets are downright disobediant and evil... but not cleric pets. I figure necro's are chaotic and clerics are ordered.

Well if your lucky enough to be killing evil mob's with a peri or eudaemon you experience no lag, cause you mostly keep them out of the battle.

To some degree I can take the hit, from having two rounds on non-prime necro but really this lag idea is silly. Even if I grip a mob, and use my grip rounds of reduced hit to order mobs I can still wind up dead. Lag should be removed on cleric.

Here endeth the rant!