Bard 8x40 Dragonmail Broken

[Gorka]

Driven, if you really, believed in your own point... you wouldn't have allowed any other class than the 4 caster orientated classes to wield the Sphairai. And if this weapon isn't actually over powering things... then why does practically everyone use one, or planning to buy one, are we all fools or something? And whats stopping you from doing that now? I dare you, remove the 4 ac classes from the restricts, and give us a full refund, if you really care about class balance. You have a choice, class balance, or no sphairai for us...

The weapon was intended to bring the classes damages together, was it not?... but because saves doesn't scale nearly as well as it should, and the base damage of this weapon was too high, the difference between mage and warrior using this weapon really just remained mostly the same. Therefore, it didn't balance anything. All you did was lift avg base damages on all classes, and the difference between warrior and mage is about the same as it always was. Why? Because we can all wield the weapon!

I don't just criticize this weapon, but any proc weapon that's also given to AC classes... the game escalated so fast from this, now we need the scepter to find things hard enough to keep us mildly amused - and so the cycle of escalation continues...

[Josiah]

Thanks for showing off the shofar! I might have to go charm some mobs and cycle for it.

[Driven]

Let's talk concretely instead of throwing around conclusions... I may very well come to the same conclusion you have, but the damage #'s need to match the conclusion. As I just learned, spell_dam does not impact the damage on disintegrate at all--that is both unexpected and a little disappointing. The result is that the damage output of the Sphairai is impacted only by spell saves. To illustrate this,
* Razyr runs capped as mage third with -23 saves, 105 spelldam in groups, disint average damage is 275 in groups.
* Capped mage runs -31 saves in groups, 250+ spelldam in groups, disint average damage is 350 in groups.
* For someone who just wields the Sphairai with minimal spell_saves gear, the average will be closer to 200.

Now, the whole point of the Sphairai was to enable mage-types to do decent damage in groups when their mana was gone, thus narrowing the gap between the melee players and the casters in groups. I believe your conclusion was that non-mage-types are using Sphairai and are generally boosting damage #'s on the mud.

Base damage of Sphairai
* 2d6, disintegrate 1/6
* Running low spell saves (around -10), damage from disint should be around 200.
* Running mid spell saves (around -23), damage from disint should be around 275.
* Running high spells saves (-31), damage from distint should be around 350.

Monks
* Barehand: 9x40 rebirth (~60 handdam) : Average damage / round 80*6 (480) hits + 350 strike ==> 830 / round.
* Barehand: 9x40 non-rebirth (50 handdam): Average damage / round 70*6 (420 hits) + 270 strike ==> 690 / round.
* Barehand: 6x40 (35 handdam): Average damage / round 55*4 (220) hits + 200 strike ==> 420 / round.
* Sphairai: 9x40 rebirth: *might* get 50 damage/cleave ==> 50*5 + 275*5/6 ==> 479/round + 50 broadside (compared to 830 hits/strikes above).
* Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth: 38 damage/cleave ==> 38*5 + 275*5/6 ==> 419/round + 38 broadside (compared to 690 hits/strikes above)
* Sphairai: 6x40: 25 damage/cleave ==> 25*4 + 275*4/6 ==> 283/round + 25 broadside (compared to 420 hits/strikes above)
* Conclusion: Monks should never use sphairai, except on ether mobs.

Warriors
* Winterblade 6d4: 9x40 rebirth (~70 weapdam): Average damage / round 100*5 (500) slashes + (111 ice ray proc * 5/10) + 100 broadside ==> 650 damage / round
* Winterblade 6d4: 9x40 non-rebirth (~50 weapdam): Average damage / round 80*5 (400) slashes + (111 ice ray proc * 5/10) + 80 broadside ==> 530 damage / round
* Winterblade 6d4: Average damage / round w/Winterb@ 6x40 is (~35 weapdam) 65*4 (260) slashes + (111 ice ray proc * 5/10) + 65 broadside ==> 380 damage / round
* Sphairai: 9x40 rebirth (~60 weapdam w/-23 saves): Average damage / round 75*5 (375) cleaves + (275 disint * 5/6) + 75 broadside ==> 679 damage / round (compared to 650 damage / round above)
* Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth (50 weapdam w/-10 saves): Average damage / round 65*5 (325) cleaves + (200 disint *5/6) + 65 broadside ==> 556 damage / round (compared to 530 damage / round above)
* Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth (40 weapdam w/-23 saves): Average damage / round 55*5 (275) cleaves + (275 disint *5/6) + 55 broadside ==> 559 damage / round (compared to 530 damage / round above)
* Sphairai: 6x40 (35 weapdam w/-10 saves): Average damage / round 50*4 (200) cleaves + (200 disint *4/6) + 50 broadside ==> 416 damage / round (compared to 380 damage / round above)
* Conclusion: Sphairai gains some damage (~3-5%) for loss of AC *and* loss of ability to riposte (which is considerable damage).
* Conclusion: Highly situational -- a lot of drachma for minimal gains, except on ether mobs.

Thieves
* Serpentine 3d7: 9x40 rebirth (34 damage): Average damage / round: 52*5 (260) pierces + (250 avg proc *5/6) + 280 circle ==> 750 / round
* Serpentine 3d7: 9x40 w/o rebirth (30 damage): Average damage / round 48*5 (240) pierces + (250 avg proc *5/6) + 250 circle ==> 700 / round
* Assassin 3d6: 6x40 (15 damage): Average damage / round 25*4 (100) pierces + (170 avg proc *4/8) + 150 circle ==> 335 / round
* Sphairai: 9x40 rebirth -- why? no way you're getting higher than warrior @ 679 damage/round, and base gear is already 750
* Sphairai: 9x40 non-rebirth -- why? no way you're getting higher than warrior @ 560 damage / round, and base gear is around 700 / round
* Sphairai: 6x40: Maybe, as you might be able to get near 400 damage/round, which is higher than 335/round, but that's an awfully high price to pay for a short-term use.
* Conclusion: Even more situational than warrior, as it may only make sense against ether mobs.

Bards
* If a bard decided to play like a monk, you would see something similar to the monks above with the damage differential being slightly lower, but still coming out ahead w/hand damage.
* If a bard decided to play like a warrior, would probably see sphairai coming out slightly ahead, which I'm ok with.
* If a bard decided to play like a caster, you would see the sphairai coming out ahead, which I'm ok with.

Casters Primes
* All four caster classes do damage w/spells in groups, except for the occasional druid the shifts into chimaera or makara.
* Casters come out way ahead w/proc weapons than w/o, which is the whole point. In our typical groups, casters run out of casting mana about 20 minutes in and are running on regen mana from there out. A strong caster can eventually get to 50 cleave damage w/350 damage for mage prime, and 275 damage for non-prime.
** Mage prime: 50*5 + 350*5/6 + 150 damage from spells (conservative estimate based on 100 mana regen standing casting frostbolts as mana becomes available) ==> 691 damage / round
** Non-mage prime: 50*5 + 275*5/6 + 120 (conservative estimate based on 100 mana regen standing casting disints/winds as mana becomes available) ==> 600 damage / round

The reality is that monks, warriors, and thieves are still doing more damage over the long-haul, but mages can burst a lot harder and faster in the short-term. These #'s do not lead me to believe that the Sphairai is out of balance. Are any of my #'s above out of whack?

[Bandit]

Slight correct on thief damage. 9x40 dagger avg. in counters is usually between 170 - 180. Shares the same "slam" counter as apply poison, but the above number is not with apply poison anyway. That seems to match up with your avg. of the 6x40 dagger though, which if I remember correctly seemed to show closer to 120 for me.

[Gorka]

Your warrior numbers are low, not surprising given your conclusions, I know you sent me a tell and asked for them, but for some weird reason I was in the middle of fighting lucifer with Phi.

But there is something really bizarre about your post, the effort you have gone to, to justify giving the Sphairai to everyone... when clearly IF the weapon was about balancing "class power" - giving the weapon to the AC classes was never going to work.

If warriors are power level A and A = 50.
If mages are power level B and B = 30.
If the sphairai is power level C and it's 20.

If you give THE SAME OBJECT "C" to A and B... the gap between A and B remains the same (C). Why are you trying so damn hard to ignore that point?

I know what your response will be... what about the loss of ac, the spell saves, the spell dam... well all three of these things didn't really matter essentially, there are areas where the ac loss doesn't matter, the spell saves don't matter, where the spell dam doesn't matter. All these factors in the end... didn't really matter much... so in the end the weapon didn't close the gap at all, it just increased everyone's damage - because the disintegrate spell has a high base damage, it didn't close the gap at all. Why you keep fighting that completely logical conclusion is beyond me. But certainly suspicious.

[Driven]

The Sphairai was SUPPOSED to raise the damage for casters. As I have clearly demonstrated, it did not do the same for thieves and monks. So you're saying the problem is only with warriors? If my #'s are incorrect, would you please provide the real #'s?

[Josiah]

I'd be very surprised to see monks wearing caster dresses and wielding a silly proc weapon.

Driven, your numbers were too high for monks. Other numbers could also have been more exact.

At max level, strike deals* triple damage + 45.
*Exceptions:
- If you fail your 'master strike' skill check, skip the +45
- 2% chance to crit, dealing double damage (probably)

Unarmed strikes deal 11 or 12 average damage. A monk with +60 damage should deal 72*6(432) + 260 strike = 692 / round (ignoring crits and skillchecks).

Because strike/circlestab/broadside are skill checks and attack rolls, they have failure rates of 10-15%, which would have the effect of lowering average damage. This lowered damage potential would be reflected in 'counters', because it only tracks successes.

Calculating the lost potential damage due to failed autoattack skill checks gets even messier, and i've never attempted it.

I'm not sure if your autoattack figures account for critical hit and massive crit. If you grabbed the average damage from 'counters' you're good. If you just assumed based on the listed values, you'd be off by a lot. Assume warrior prime autoattacks deal 25% extra damage, while nonprimes deal 10% extra. That isn't exactly right, but it's close enough.

[Hung]

Sorry for raising this old topic from the dead.
But Driven's calculations seems very interesting.
Unfortunately they don't address one very important question: how much damage Sphairai grants next to the spiritual hammer, which was main weapon against ether before Sphairai for most of the classes?
It seems to me that warriors and thieves are main beneficiaries of the Sphairai, since fighting ether was their weak side. Now they got boost there.

Another important question is "Sphairai vs Dark Mace". It would be great if someone did the exact calculations.

[Hung]

Today I got comprehensive answer on my second question, when saw a prime 9x40 cleric wielding Sphairai instead of the dark mace...
The drachma item that eliminated the prime skill...

[cnl]

i think it's ok that a 1000 drachma item is better than a skill a level 20 something character can learn for free at the cleric guild

it's a good spell at low levels and it's ok that by 6x40 there's better options.

[cnl]

i think if it was reworked somehow - it would have to be some kind of buff you cast on other weapons

i suppose you could have a progression of dark maces too for different level points.

personally, i think if a cleric skill got reworked some it should be aerial servant.

[Hung]

Not that I oppose idea of turning dark mace into buff you could cast on any weapon.
But I still would like to propose alternative solution: nerf Spharai right into the ground. Make it just slightly better than the spiritual hammer. Restore original game balance, where bards and clerics have held high superiority in fighting ethereal mobiles. Which made those classes unique.
Of course, such nerf should come with some kind of drachma compensation. As nerfed Sphairai should cost way less than 1000. And the price difference should be somehow reimbursted to its buyers.

I would like to remind that for decades sloth staff had no problem nerfing apparently disbalanced things. I.e. there was a nerf of 'second wind'. As originally it allowed to unliminited actions per round. They nerfed into no more than 1 additional action per round. Probably it caused some people's outrage. But it was definitely justified.
It would be justified in this case too.

[Insomnia]

I am very opposed to the notion of "restoring the original game balance" in any form. It just never works – you can't bring back your golden age without breaking more things and making a complete mess.

At the same time, I agree that we currently get extremely powerful items without any significant effort. At some point, drachma becomes cheap, and everyone ends up owning the same set of equipment, which doesn't feel entirely right. One thing we could try is introducing more combinations of drachma, quests and forges. Diamond-encrusted demonskin boots are an excellent example of this – to make them, you need a drachma item + a high-level forge + a ton of money. I wouldn't mind at all if all items that currently cost 500+ drachma took a similar amount of time and skill to get.

My two cents on Sphairai:

1. According to my measurements, Sphairai does the same damage on average as Winterblade (for Squip).
2. It's also two-handed and can't be used without preparation (you can't remove a shield in the middle of a fight).
3. Yes, it hits ethereal mobs, which is exactly why we buy it. And no, it doesn't make me feel that clerics and bards become weaker classes because of that.

I generally don't think that it's a problem that differences between prime classes become less relevant after 6x40. I'd personally prefer to have a lot more smoother transitions depending on the class order. We already have different caps depending on positions of different classes. Insomnia as a mage prime can get -30 saves, Squip as a mage 7th is capped at -13. I'd absolutely love to see the same principle applied to all other attributes, e.g. not capping armor class at -10 for everyone when it's -20 for warriors. In my opinion, when there's a multi-class system of eight classes, there shouldn't be a drastic difference between mage/warrior and warrior/mage.

[Hung]

Regarding sloth's "golden age", I feel like a fan of Terminator franchize.
You know, they got a tradition started at some point: every time a new movie is released they say it's worst part and that the previous wasn't so bad after all.
Similarly I feel about the current and past states of sloth. I must admit that I complained a lot in the past, but now it seems like that age was cornerstore of reason and balance.
Now I turn head in one direction and see unlimited mana. I turn it in other and see a weapon that is better than the primary skill. Finally at third direction, I see an armor clasp so OP, that many players simply stopped using all armors - which included 3x40 and armors for 1000 drachma - that isn't compatible with that clasp. At this point I don't even want to learn what other revolutionary balance surprises were introduced.

Moreover I see that whole development paradigm change. There were OP items/skills/merchanics in the past. But they were nerfed eventually. Now the paradigm is "we can't nerf things since it'll cause more mess". I don't get it. Why it was ok to nerf "second wind" in the past, but not ok to nerf Spharai now?

In my opinion, significant difference between classes was one of the things that made sloth cool. It provided vastly different play styles. Hence I'd prefer to keep the difference and not eliminate it.

Regarding extremelly powerful items that make players extremelly powerful too, I noticed one thing: there wasn't a new area introduced in maybe 2 or even 3 years? And maybe one of the reason is that it's simply hard to make an area that provides challenge for modern day players, who chew 100m mob on breakfast without even sweating?

[Insomnia]

Incorrect. We had 23 new areas added in December, 2022.