Rebirths

[*Breeze*]

hmmmmmm...

[Filk]

I really think that idea worth to be discussed and implemented in some way.
Now we have global cap at the game. At the point, when you purchasing all needed thing in avatar shop. And picking all eq you want(which you often do earlier then even 9x40).

If there will be some reborn option, not only for fun, but for some real advantages, that will give capped players ability to achive something more. With good implementation - infinite ability.

Maybe it will ends with allpowered chars, able to do some really impressive things. But why not? Even now each and every mob in that game is killable with mare. Nothing will changes. And on other hand, that will add some interesting options to area builders with raising dificulty. And worthing rewards.

Be honest, now we are stagnating. That will bring some interesting side to our game. Image all these 9x40's playing again constantly

[*Breeze*]

talk among selves and come up with a full/realistic idea and i will discuss it with rick and the others

keyword: realistic

[cyprimus]

Seems perfect for me too. Do not see me redoing cy, but paka definately, ip likely.

Will need more details. And ..time.. lol

From what i gathered, keep same name, keep all stats, all eq, but loose avvie other avvie shop purchases.
Keep rank.
Reset drac quests-this for me is the deal maker... i suck for drac.. lol
Keep learned, but blocked till you relevel

Potential abuse in the stats, if ppl choose a different classo, but not major.. as most will assume 19 in all stats before doing it.

For me i see it evolving as roles... level once as... blast mage.. then level again getting another main roles eq... healer for example.. etc..

40 eq ...don't care either way.

Avvie light... same...

[Teron]

Breeze, it does add a bit of room for thought, because it's not just doing another char, with all the sbs and eq, which require cycling, and also allows one to build a 2nd or 3d set of drachma eq (ie, not just ac, but hd or spell damage).

As of current results of rebirth, I'd rather reborn, than remort, because I like playing a warrior, anyway. I actually was considering changing my classo on Taron from secondary after getting 6x40 with my remort.

I'll try to see how other MUDs have done it.

JB, before I create raid mobs, I need to finish writing how to do the group scheduler we discussed earlier, and to write an area for 1-5-10 levels, if I ever get to writing areas.

I do have a few unique ideas for raid mobs, something that hasn't been done here before and which would require more attention from the group, but I'm not sure whether it can be done, since epic procs seem to be a pain to create(?).

Fluffy, you don't have to rebirth to get high ranks, remorting is fine. Mage remorted a few months ago and is on the same rank as I am.

Anyway, I too agree that there could be something that'd accumulate over rebirths on a character, like extra damage, regen and ac as the innate remort bonus - which should be shown/known to players.

[Gorka]

It appears the idea of "Rebirths" really got tongues wagging. It's also been discussed a lot in the telegram channel and people are really interested. It's also been unanimously (?) supported that the base of the idea should be what happened to Josiah. However some people believe it needs to go just a little further by allowing the transportation of "something" from the avatar shop before being reborn.

The reasons some people are saying this make sense. Take for example a character like Dr, who has effectively played the game twice in the same character, who has spent more than 400b in the avatar shop... and already has most drachma items that he needs... there seems little point to be reborn.

In fact I suspect Josiah made this deal only out of boredom originally... if anything it was a sacrifice, that ended up working out probably better than he expected.

I think the point now is, what should be allowed to be carried over from the avatar shop... if anything... bear in mind we still have caps... so nothing is effectively getting more powerful... perhaps just more obtainable.

The ideas I have heard are...

* Taking across stats included purchased MAX_STATS
* Taking across avatar hit/dam
* Taking a select number of shop purchases
etc

[Josiah]

I made out like a bandit; I'd be the first to admit. All I asked for was to be deleted without losing my personal eq.

There's a lot of rumors going around, so here's what I lost and gained:

I lost all my levels and xp. I lost all my avatar shop purchases. I lost the 500 million or so gold spent on those levels and av shop purchases. I lost a capped 9x40 character, and have no way of killing mobs that I could easily slaughter last week.

Unexpectedly, I kept my stats, rank, and warcry counter. I don't have to read books again. I get to run autoquests again. I have a fancy thing next to my name on tho who list. I got to feel scared this morning when Lucifer disengaged onto me and took me down to 2 hp. This is so cool!

I'd definitely recommend 'Reborn' becoming a thing. For me, it wasn't about maximizing or gaining power, it was just a desire to play again through a game I love. I've tried many alts, but none of them had this ****** that I feel now, of playing MY favorite character again.

If there is a reasonable demand for increased endgame power via Reborn, I'd recommend it be met by increasing the caps on avatar store purchases. For myself, I'm very happy with things the way they are.

[Josiah]

Unrelated, but since we're talking about new stuff... I've always liked the idea of grabbing a prime skill or spell from another class.

Shield of Thorns, Second Wind, Frostbolt, Deathtouch, Apply Poison, Adaptation to Circumstances... There are a lot of good options that could add some individuality to our characters if there was a way to unlock one ability from another class.

[Teron]

Josiah, you forgot the prime skill that I'd grab first: wraithform. Though the shield of thorns is a strong contender.

[Filk]

I was long thinking about that question. Thats my thoughts about how it could be done.
Each reincarnation gives plain:
.1 ac
1 dam
2 mr
+1 to all stats
30 mana
30 hp
all stat caps raised by 5%
Ability to pick another 9x40 light on each 9x40
Cleaned quest list, and usual remort bonuses.

You do it at master avatar. Action takes all exp you have(so no instant leveling after reincarnation). I dont know, how better add stats to the char, but it could be permanent stackable spell attached to a player. So you always see, how many reincarnations you passed.

Lets image someone did 5 reincarnations. Which took him maybe 5 or more years.
He gets .5 ac, 5 dam, 10mr, 5x18 natural stats, 150 extra mana, 150 extra hp. 25% higher caps(which is still limited by eq). Avatar light for each eq set he has. And all drachma items for each sets.

Such char will be better because of plain ac, mr, dam, hp, mana bonuses. But not extremly better i think.
Caps allowing that char get little better results at primary class stat, and about the same as non-reincarnated primary class in their stats(depending on class order still, and limited by existing eq anyway).
And each eq set isnt any better then ordinary char could have, just all these sets at once.

I understand, that list seems big, and maybe looks too greedy. But in fact, its just all rounded improvement of total power, without edging one specific side.
And after 2-3 time, you actually gets only ac, mr, dam, hp, mana bonuses. Since othat bonuses dont stack that much.
Dont forget, that you pay years of life time for that power addition, so why not. It could give second life to all 9x40 avatars.

Though i have feeling, that will kill avatar shop, because ppl will not play at 9x40 for long

Discuss

[Gorka]

Though i have feeling, that will kill avatar shop, because ppl will not play at 9x40 for long

Important point this... avatar shop needs to be redone in such a way, that you keep what you purchase from the shop for each and subsequent rebirth... otherwise avatar shop is really mostly null and void.

There are a few ways you can work this... most of them a bit of a change... but whats the point of buying from avatar shop if you've decided to be reborn... and reborn is arguably more attractive than avatar shop.

There really does need to be some recognition and change in regards to this game system conflict if rebirths are going to be a "thing."

Double drachma will also increase the calls to do something about the state of drachma eq. In my opinion this should be thrown back to players to fix in a consultative process... (given some boundaries) then ruled on by an immortal in charge... as this is too much work to be done well by one player, especially an immortal who doesn't want to suffer all "whining" from totally unreasonable players.

[Teron]

1. Since avatars can buy stats once, and keep them, there's no point in giving 5 stat points every remort.

Adding max stats would've been fun, but max dex beats any other stat and ac bonus, so I don't see how "add at least one max stat per rebirth" would've been reasonable as well, while max str is lackluster.

2. As for shops, since max stats apparently stay through rebirths, that's what people would buy at their original 9x40: stats.

In another few games I've seen, stat shops are used in different stages of progression. People used them to buy stats to boost their play now (smth Gorka argued for long ago), others choose to spend 10 years on rebirthing, some choose to do it once and then just buy up the shop then. So shop will still be used. It's obvious, though, that it's easier to buy effects after rebirth, than before.

So no, Gorka, don't suggest redoing the shop just because some of us will choose to reborn. Some may not have the desire to spend another 6-12 months on the same char to get the same benefits you usually get for 6 avatar levels. Just think of the 125mil gold it costs to get to 6x40 and how much time you'd need to grind it. And it's only a start.

3. I suggest raising caps not by 5%, but by specific amounts.

First of all, which cap is used - the one I had before or have after rebirth? They are different for each classo, and the new classo is non-existent at the time of rebirth. If I remort from a mage 7th or 8th and you increase the cap of 45sb by 5%, it'll give me 2.25sb, even if I choose to play wa/ma after rebirth, what's the fun in that? Even a cap of 130sb raised by 5% is +7.5sb, which isn't smth to write home about.

Raising caps by 10 spellbonus/healbonus/stab/circle/1 dam reduction/-2 all saves would be much more appreciated and be within reasonable limits, imho.

4. Raising caps themselves doesn't seem to be very useful, where eq caps exist. I'd rather be able to buy bonus flail/spell dam/dam reduction/flail/saves, than get larger caps. I'm not clear on this one, need to think it over.

5. For the sake of completeness, might as well add +hit per remort. It's universally useful and isn't that OP to argue about.

[Filk]

1. Just for the record. I dont offer to keep any avatar bonus shops. Because it gonna be too overpowered, if you continiously buying it. And too overpowered, if low level chars keeps it. So all avatar shop bonuses are cleaned. Including stats. Thats why i offer plain +1 to each stat on each reincarnation.

So you can choose, if you want to play at the top with all bonuses you get from shop, or you reincarnate 5 times for the same bonuses without the shop.


2. Speaking of the caps - i dont watch at it in terms of single reborn. But in limiting gains when you do it several times. Percents should be rounded for sure.
What matters - is after 5 reincarnations you get 25% bonuses on caps. Which for example of given 130 spell dam, gives 32 more spell dam over basic cap. Good, but not overkill - just few more spelldam items you could wear. Some way you could spend that extra drachma.
And dont forget, that my idea is about overall raising of most stats. And not becaming a god after several reincarnations. Not about rasing spelldam to the heavens and oneshooting everything.

Because any too overpowered idea will be just refused and thats all. Think from that point of view

You get bonuses to your current caps. No matter, what classo you had before. In percents, so its simple and gives interesting choices for new classo each time. Idea with permanent spell perfectly covers that logic.

Hit could be raised also, yeah. Forgot about it. By 1 or 2 probably.

[Gorka]

I don't think OP is an issue... essentially caps are meant to stop this happening... so why not keep the small offerings from the avatar shop each rebirth? Only going to hit the cap anyway.

I also don't have a problem with players becoming God like, as long as they get there through hard work and linear progression then in my opinion the player has earned it. I mean look at Zuzu, Josiah and Dr... it's already happening... There is already an unmeasurable difference between a level 1 and a 9x40 avatar... what difference is that making to the game? So what is the effect if the distance becomes a bit wider? Well... probably not much at all...

It's fun to discuss ideas, but I feel some of the issues we have raised have complicated things a bit more than expected... I note nearly all are centered around avatar shop, which is an idea that clearly kind of conflicts with rebirth. I guess the question is, do we want to have the two options at avatar... shop and rebirth... and how can those things complement each other... before we discuss nitty gritty pluses and minuses.

[Filk]

After some thinking, i believe avatar shop and reincarnation perfectly fits each other. Some players able to choose to play at top, with all shop bonuses. OR. Could reincarnate, and become waaay more weaker in current time with potential to be little more powerful in future.
If you lose all exp on reincarnation, its only matter of time when you want to make that switch. And on what cycle to stop reincarnation and sticks to shop only.

And about power - read again Breeze last message. If we want that thing to be done, it should be realistic in each and every continuity