Bard 8x40 Dragonmail Broken

[Gorka]

Yesterday Tonedeaf, the newest (and soon to be greatest!) bardass, forged his elite 8x40 bard eq "Ancient Dragonmail of the Knights Order." Unfortunately it does not work as advertised...

AFF_KNIGHTS_BLESSING = 1

The knights blessing simply doesn't function on the armor. If I sing the song the song works, but the armor does not. Furthermore... could the difference between knights blessing and knights prayer be explained, because they do exactly the same thing. If it's an avatar version of the same song... then why did it need that?

I know we don't really have many people playing bards... but there is good reasons for that...

* Bard lacks a prime offensive or defensive skill, that's not better in a secondary class.
* Charisma works with about 7 songs... and one of those is an avatar version of the same song. Two of them wake mobs up and make them sleep... because that's useful in a game where you kill things for experience.
* The songs charisma works with are extremely rarely used.
* Charisma has no effect on luck gods. Luck gods only works effectively at high levels and now all the best eq is drachma.
* Charisma does not increase the damage of offensive spells, only saves.
* Songs like fare thee well, haunted dirge, only effectively replicate spells in other classes.
* Song of the Mist is somewhat redundant with the Sphairai and doesn't reach many people.
* Sidhe charms have a more limited function with so many mana and health potions in the game. Increased mana regen means trying to find a shard and forge a charm isn't often worth the hassle, and they can't be vaulted.
* The best instrument a bard can use is not even prime - but nearly all other instruments are.
* The most used songs by thousands of times are rina, gods, march and valor... and only gods has a prime effect, and none of them use Charisma.
* There is very little transparency or feedback when songs are sung... it's difficult to determine whether they are succeeding or failing in a lot of cases.

Can the builders and people who create equipment please stop putting charisma on "bard equipment." In day to day normal running - It's as useful as firewind on the eternal flame.

Bard is filled with lost opportunities, charm person / eye of the beholder / luck gods / cry of the avatar damage could have all been charisma based and instruments could be made far more interesting. Instead we are part thief, part warriors with very little identity other than "the player who sings gods in a group." If it weren't for support classes, Bard would be pretty insufferable. I knew this before I made one, and I made one partly because of it, I know I will find a way to make Tonedeaf better than avg players... but all the same, if classes aren't being picked because they are useless, they need fixing. It seems being an active player and an immortal usually turns into a conflict of interest.

[Oboe]

Blackmore, Oboe and Sochi enjoyed their bard characteristics. Given the choice between Oboe's class order and Gorka's class order, I would again pick Oboe's. I think you are trying to help SlothMUD, but I am glad your views have not affected the development of the bard class.

[Gorka]

You've peaked my interest, what do you think should be done with the bard class? If you think nothing... then how do you justify your view, given the fact that in it's current state it has next to no interest from players. If you create something that does not capture the view or desire of an audience isn't that a failure? Recently you described your view to me as being philosophical... that in games, if people don't like them, you don't simply change the game to suit them... and I think you mentioned chess as an example. It seems like your argument is strong, but I've been thinking about it the past few days, and I think it more doesn't apply. Sloth is not like chess, it has always changed and evolved... and that concept is core to it's draw to immortal and players. Sloth has always been in search of balance, and it's nearly always been "wobbly." Secondly, chess is far more balanced than sloth. Although some pieces are more powerful than others, essentially there are more weaker pieces to make up that balance. A bishop or a rook might have more ability, but it's balanced by the pawns numbers. Thirdly, what development of the bard class?

Usually I can see where other people are coming from, even if I disagree, but in this case I'm more bamboozled. I don't know what to think. If you love Oboe so much, why wouldn't we see him playing more often. Instead we see him 5 times a year for 5mins but hear these ultra conservative views. In the past you've routinely come along and shut down bard related threads like you own them. You haven't really added to any discussion, you are kind of elusive, I've tried to engage you in conversation, in game to understand you more, but your not very open. You just seem to come past and shut things down.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=4659&hilit=make+charisma

It comes across like your the "bard-father." Please help us understand what your thinking and why... at least give us a chance to understand... so we can make our own minds up. One of your titles has aroused my suspicion, the one where you said you were not captive to "prime centric" thinking... and I understand what you meant, but it's declared kind of arrogantly and I'm wondering, if you have great wisdom to offer... then please... offer it. Are you prepared to defend the fact Charisma, which is used very little as a factor in bard skills, as being "good?"

I don't really want to see "bards" changed in the way they work either. But I do want to see them improved. Charisma is the heart of the bard class... it means "compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others." I don't want to become a warrior, a necro or a mage defacto when I play a prime bard... I think "manipulation" is the heart of the bard class, and all improvements should come from that angle. I don't want to be powerful in myself, but manipulate the power around me when I play my bard. My bard was started almost as a joke, it's why I named a singing character as "Tonedeaf." Essentially I don't have much invested in any Bard outcome, because Gorka can do everything better if I felt that way... I've started this character to learn about weakness in this game, not to be more powerful, but to understand it. I've heard stories of Bard's taking down large mobs, and I know how they do it, but it's seems more of an exploit, than by design. If they removed charm person from the game, what would you say about bard then? Since most other features of Bard seem deficient these days. Is charming undead soliders and what not still peak power in some people's minds? Shouldn't charm person use charisma on some scale instead of saves para? Seems a more congruent idea.

For the Record, apparently the bard armor is fixed in the next reboot.

[basche]

The Bard charisma problem is the same as Necromancer undead control. They both sound like they would apply to followers but neither allows you to build a more powerful group than any other player class.

[Driven]

Doesn't undead control play into hitpoints of your undrad followers? Not saying UC is anywhere near the realm of being done properly, but I am just responding to the comment that UC doesn't give you better followers... is my understanding incorrect?

[Oboe]

Gorka, your summary of my position is complete, but I'll elaborate a bit. For
me, the pleasant part of gaming is measuring the effectiveness of numerous
techniques, then selecting optimal strategies using that evidence. When a
thread proposes making a technique work differently, granting that petition
obsolesces evidence I've collected. That's a loss of progress. Granting the
petition also gives the proposer a shortcut (less need to measure when you can
convince staff to make the game conform to your proposal). That doesn't harm me
directly, but it suggests proposals to staff can outperform careful measurement.
I prefer a game where measurement is king. How do you see it?

Charisma is crucial for some techniques involving some songs. So yes, it's
"good". I keep a charisma set accessible.

[Gorka]

Gorka, your summary of my position is complete, but I'll elaborate a bit. For
me, the pleasant part of gaming is measuring the effectiveness of numerous
techniques, then selecting optimal strategies using that evidence. When a
thread proposes making a technique work differently, granting that petition
obsolesces evidence I've collected. That's a loss of progress. Granting the
petition also gives the proposer a shortcut (less need to measure when you can
convince staff to make the game conform to your proposal). That doesn't harm me
directly, but it suggests proposals to staff can outperform careful measurement.
I prefer a game where measurement is king. How do you see it?

I agree with your principal, and it's what gives me my satisfaction in the game... finding ways to do things, especially when others can't. For example check out my guide on optimizing coliseum scores for all players. But perhaps my view is a bit more balanced? Your post suggests that "change would be a loss of progress" (not always true) and that people only want change because essentially they aren't competent and don't understand. Although that can also be true (and even often is the case) - it is just as true that bard power through charm person is really an exploitation of a mostly UNINTENDED feature of the game - namely a shonkey implementation of mob saves and bad building. Nor is the issue a bard prime feature... Taron played the same way. I'm not much different than you in the way I exploit game features, intended or unintended - In that respect I am as guilty as sin. However I feel that INTENDED features and principals of the game should overrule and be made the focus, well UNINTENDED features must be slowly reworked and shaped out of the game.

I don't know if you are familiar with Minecraft, but in the game there has been an active exploit for many years allowing players to "duplicate items" - Namely TNT, which allows players to build devices with basically unlimited TNT supply to blow up the terrain. The devs are well aware of the issues, the community is divided about whether the exploit is "cheating or not." Some players actively refuse to use the exploit. However the exploit has also become such an important part of the game, there is paralysis among the devs. My view in situations like this is that "TNT Duplication" violates the values of the game - that items used shouldn't exist after being used, the best thing that could happen is a reworking of the game so that it doesn't violate it's values, but also so the community can still do the mining projects TNT Duplication allows. This is also how I see the Charm Person situation, it's really an exploit, it should be removed, but reworked back into the game legally in some way... using Charisma saves in my view. I don't think that "exploitation" should be a players sole motivation - occasionally we also need to consider the common good, as sometimes these things will conflict.

Clearly there are some attributes associated with classes that are worth less than others. Namely Charisma, Undead Control, Perhaps even Shock or Sysshock if these values are still overridden by Rina, as it was in the past. I agree it's not up to players to change a game to suit themselves, however I also think that a game should abide by it's principals and ideas, in the case of sloth a desire for class power to be balanced. I'm not here asking for +500 damage, or an army of minions because I can't play Bard, I'm here saying that I think the Bard class violates sloths own values / principals of the game. The view of players, shouldn't override the principals of the game in most circumstances - and that's what the immortals are supposed to be there for, to protect the integrity of the game. But that's not whats happened, clearly Juggleblood worked saves para into bard eq in a number of things he did or influenced, simply to suit himself and that play style. Yes, even the proponents of the game style you play, even changed the game to suit themselves. It appears being an active player and an immortal usually ends in a conflict of interest.

Everyone who plays Sloth knows that Bards use Charisma according to game "lore." But look at this... saves para on bard eq? Clearly there has been an attempt here to "widen the keyhole" so to speak on the questionable ability to charm mobs in sloth which seems a little outside of the original intentions of Bard being charisma based.

Midnight Greaves of Hypnotic Resonance[ARMOR] [22 Feb 2019]
midnight greaves hypnotic resonance oct40
GLOW PERSONAL MAGIC
8x40-ITEM
Ba40 Prime 8x40
-1.6
Spellbonus 10, Charisma 2, SpellSaves -2
AFF_SAVING_PARA = -2

The irony is the most worthless attribute of this armor (2 regular charisma), is the very thing that is the most "bardie" according to game "lore." It's situations like this where I think sloth violates it's own principals.

sleeves of the stormbringer[ARMOR] [01 Feb 2015]
stormbringer sleeves
4x40-ITEM
Ba40 4x40
-0.7
Charisma 1, Shock 1, ResElec 50
AFF_SAVING_PARA = -1

[Driven]

Obviously I played my part in this saves-para situation on Bard eq. I polled the master players in the game for each class when I was brainstorming about gear. Sochi, at the time, was the most active Bard, and he expressed to me that saves-para was his wheelhouse. I understood what he wanted it for and I chose to grant his request for a very specific reason.

If you take a step back and think about Bard, they are sort of like Paladins from the original Diablo where they have these 'auras' that impact people around them. In solo, they were ok, but in groups of people when the auras started to stack, the effect was tremendous. The strength of a Bard is their songs. When by themselves, they are 'just ok', but in groups, the effects start to shine. Please don't derail the point I'm making here with the fact that non-bard primes do almost as well as bard primes in this regard. My point is that songs really start to shine in groups. To remove charm person for Bards would be like saying 'yea, your greatest strength, that thing you've been honing all this time, I don't really want you to be able to use that in solo'. In Sloth there are two ways to form groups as a solo player--undead and charm person.

Generally speaking, necros have the undead, whereas bards tend to choose charm person. From a lore point of view, that.. makes sense. We could argue about the strength of charmed mobs vs. summon undead vs. animate vs. control undead, but I think the general concepts in play are appropriate. Bards should be able to paralyze / hypnotize / charm better than every other prime.

[Josiah]

> wake mobs up and make them sleep... because that's useful in a game where you kill things for experience.

Backstabbing or deathtouching a sleeping mob grants a crazy damage boost. 10m+ xp mobs can easily be splorked with by a bard, or with the help of one.

> The songs charisma works with are extremely rarely used.

Rarely used because of lack of imagination? 2-man xp with a bard singing 'wall of sleep' and 'reign' as appropriate is crazy. (100% deathgrip/deathtouch is good stuff!)

> Charisma does not increase the damage of offensive spells, only saves.

Cry of the Avatar deals charisma-based damage.

> Song of the Mist is somewhat redundant with the Sphairai and doesn't reach many people.

Last I checked, Sphairai doesn't let me deal 1000ish damage a round to ethereals (by flurrying and striking)

> Songs like fare thee well, haunted dirge, only effectively replicate spells in other classes.

Fare thee well stacks with grace. I don't think it is fair to call that 'replicating.' I gladly use both as appropriate.

> The most used songs by thousands of times are rina, gods, march and valor... and only gods has a prime effect, and none of them use Charisma.

I *think* valor and brothers have prime effects.

G, you might want to get more experience with Bards before criticizing the class.

> The best instrument a bard can use is not even prime - but nearly all other instruments are.

What is this? I wasn't aware non-bards even have an <instrument> slot or the 'play' command.

[Gorka]

Well that's outrageous Josiah, at least half your points are just factually wrong. Then you have the cheek to tell me to get more experience playing a bard. And for the record Josiah is another player I believe who has a lot invested exploiting the saves para situation. There is a little group of players who play about 5mins a month at the moment, who are protecting the situation... well simultaneously trying to shut down any comment about it.

Firstly lets just go over the complete nonsense you posted...

>> Charisma does not increase the damage of offensive spells, only saves.
>Cry of the Avatar deals charisma-based damage.
It increases the saves, not the damage amount. Confirmed with Breeze earlier.

>> Song of the Mist is somewhat redundant with the Sphairai and doesn't reach many people.
>Last I checked, Sphairai doesn't let me deal 1000ish damage a round to ethereals (by flurrying and striking)
Check again. Even with Gorka the Sphairai can. Did you even max Josiah in spell damage... Unlikely I'd think.

>> The most used songs by thousands of times are rina, gods, march and valor... and only gods has a prime effect, and none of them use Charisma.
>I *think* valor and brothers have prime effects.
Totally incorrect. It's the same for valor.

>> The best instrument a bard can use is not even prime - but nearly all other instruments are.
What is this? I wasn't aware non-bards even have an <instrument> slot or the 'play' command.
It's called the Shofar, and if you looked up the eqlist you could check your facts.

>> Songs like fare thee well, haunted dirge, only effectively replicate spells in other classes.
>Fare thee well stacks with grace. I don't think it is fair to call that 'replicating.' I gladly use both as appropriate.
This is true, they will stack, but effectively they are still a replication of each other, because they do the same thing, that was my point.

>> Backstabbing or deathtouching a sleeping mob grants a crazy damage boost. 10m+ xp mobs can easily be splorked with by a bard, or with the help of one.
> I have tested this earlier, not a lot. Noticed no extra damage on counters... but have reason to believe it should be double damage... just can't confirm it yet.

Outrageous, factually incorrect and hypocritical post Josiah.

[Gorka]

Please don't derail the point I'm making here with the fact that non-bard primes do almost as well as bard primes in this regard. To remove charm person for Bards would be like saying 'yea, your greatest strength, that thing you've been honing all this time, I don't really want you to be able to use that in solo'.

Honing all this time? Exploiting, using immortals to add saves para to bard eq? Is that what honing looks and sounds like. You make it sound like they worked out in the gym to make it happen... The little amounts they probably deceived you into adding, was probably enough to tip the balance in the equation as originally mobs only had a max of 20 saves para, that's what I am assuming would be the max for a lot of old mobs. I'm not suggesting charm person should be removed from Bards, I'm suggesting it's current use is really an exploitation and should be reworked and "legalised" more using charisma. It also needs balancing against the fact that it probably needs to work with only certain monster classes... ie, bards with people, necros with undead, druid with animals not because it suits me (I can do this exploit like everyone else to my advantage), but because that runs with class "lore."

[Josiah]

I'm confused about how I was hypocritical. I assume it has something to do with an obscure piece of saves_paralysis gear that I didn't mention at all and would never consider using?

I'm not suggesting charm person should be removed from Bards, I'm suggesting it's current use is really an exploitation and should be reworked and "legalised" more using charisma.

Charm Person predates both bards and charisma. I used it regularly on Sloth III before any of the new classes were implemented. If its 'current use' is an exploitation, it certainly isn't a new one.

... I do miss mobs having all skills trained at zero percent. Zero percent ambush still goes through locked doors, it just fails the backstab. Taking your charmed mobs to the warriors guild to practice double attack was another fun exploit that was removed.

After 25 years of revision, you can safely assume that most things in the game are 'game mechanics' rather than 'exploits'

Well that's outrageous Josiah, at least half your points are just factually wrong.

False.

> Cry
"Confirmed with Breeze?" Seriously? He's a warrior/thief. Why would you ask him about bard spells? Were you expecting him to check the code for you, or have it memorized? He's a game administrator, not an Omniscient deity.

Charisma affects saves vs bard songs as a general principle. On Cry of the Avatars specifically, it also adds about 2-3 damage per point. Talk to an inquisitive bard like Blackmore or Oboe if you want to know about their class abilities. Or since you apparently don't trust anyone, test it yourself.

>Sphairai

I'm talking about reliable damage, not your highest ever damage on a round where the weapon quintuple procced.

You are correct, my classo prohibits the use of spell damage and proc weapons because my spell saves cap is pathetic.

>Valor

I'm the local expert on what I think, Gorka. I guarantee I'm not 'factually wrong' about my beliefs!

>Shofar

Love to see a screencap of someone 'playing' the shofar. I was aware that it existed, and that it doesn't explicitly list bard as a prereq. I've never seen a nonbard equipping or playing it.

>Counters

Counters is a great recent addition to the game, but it seems likely that it could miss bonus positional damage. For instance, it could log how much damage you roll, but the mob could receive more than that based on its position.

When I tested it (many years ago), I used a 1d1 weapon against a mob charmed by another player, which reported hp after each stab. But yeah, looking at counters is rigorous. Go with that. /s

There was an unrelated change to fight positioning after my test, which might have unintentionally nerfed this strategy. I never bothered checking again because I'm not a bard.

[Gorka]

The dragonmail is now fixed and tested on my Bard. Thank you.

Charm Person predates both bards and charisma

But it doesn't predate all the new eq, and runes that exploits it.

After 25 years of revision, you can safely assume that most things in the game are 'game mechanics' rather than 'exploits'

Let's test this theory then. Let me write a post about the equipment to collect, and the mobs to charm... and lets see if the imms do anything about low level players walking around with massive meat shields with aegis doing a dozen or so viscous massacres, soloing draconian lair.

"Confirmed with Breeze?" Were you expecting him to check the code for you.

I emailed him. He checked the code and told me it had not changed from how it was in the code leak which I quoted to him. Charisma does not effect cry damage, nor does it factor in Luck Gods.

Sphairai, I'm talking about reliable damage, not your highest ever damage on a round where the weapon quintuple procced.

If you factor in the proc damage damage 1 out of 6 rounds average... The damage super cedes your bare handed attacks with flurry. Not going to count your strike, unless I can count my firewind... either way, bare handed is now inferior to proc weapons.

Love to see a screencap of someone 'playing' the shofar.

You begin to play 'gods of war'.
Ok.

You are using:
<used as light> a glowing bauble with `Gorka` engraved upon on it ()socketed Rhodochrosite Rune()
(with a dragon skull of silver steel (Legend) attached to it)
<worn on finger> the titanium ring of power ()socketed Chrysoprase Rune() (with an emerald of
insight attached to it)
<worn on finger> the titanium ring of power ()socketed Chrysoprase Rune() (with an emerald of
insight attached to it)
<worn on shoulders> Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards ()socketed Tourmaline Rune() (with a golden oak tree
charm attached to it)
<worn around neck> ankh of purity ()socketed Tourmaline Rune() (with a golden oak tree charm attached
to it)
<worn on body> Ancient Cuirass of the War Gods ()socketed Alexandrite Rune() (with a fish-scale
buckle attached to it)
<worn on head> an Olthoi Great Helm ()socketed Sapphire Rune() (with a mark of distinction
attached to it)
<worn on legs> Redsteel Legplates of Hades ()socketed Sardonyx Rune() (with essence of a
quickling's soul attached to it)
<worn on feet> a pair of diamond-encrusted demonskin boots ()socketed Moonstone Rune() (with
Adamantine Chains of Vigor attached to it)
<worn on hands> devilskin gauntlets ()socketed Jet Rune() (with shadow spikes attached to it)
<worn on arms> Mithril Sleeves of Molten Earth ()socketed Amethyst Rune() (with ethereal runes of
the arch-magi attached to it)
<worn as shield> Mithril Shield of Molten Earth ()socketed Red Spinel Rune() (with an emblem of a
rose attached to it)
<worn about body> Cloak of Shadows ()socketed Eye Agate Rune()
<worn about waist> a feathered cincture ()socketed Jacinth Rune() (with charm of the demon mage
attached to it)
<worn around wrist> Braided Hemp Bracelet ()socketed Tomb Jade Rune() (with some stardust attached to
it)
<worn around wrist> Braided Hemp Bracelet ()socketed Tomb Jade Rune() (with some stardust attached to
it)
<wielded> The Winterblade ()socketed Black Onyx Rune() (with a seal of the dying flame
attached to it)
<held> Sacred Relic of the High Paladin ()socketed Obsidian Rune() (with the Iolite of
Omah attached to it)
<instrument> a hollowed ram's horn shofar

Counters is a great recent addition to the game, but it seems likely that it could miss bonus positional damage.

I think this is likely. I ran some tests hitting sleeping Bakemono's. Sleeping them first (if it worked) definitely increased the stab damage, although counters seemed to show no increase.

I'm confused about how I was hypocritical

G, you might want to get more experience with Bards

I'm not a bard.

[Hung]

I think that prime bard is weakest class solo-wise and charisma is quite useless.
Both issues could be addressed by scaling "gods of wars" damage by charisma.

[Driven]

I'm not debating that changes need to be made for bard or other less-privileged classes, but I am going to debate this point, as it shows up in your posts over and over again. This is a narrow understanding of damage and how it plays into the overall balance of the mud. This is taking one fact and putting a microscope on it, while completely ignoring all of the other factors at play.

If you factor in the proc damage damage 1 out of 6 rounds average... The damage super cedes your bare handed attacks with flurry. Not going to count your strike, unless I can count my firewind... either way, bare handed is now inferior to proc weapons.

This might be true for the first 20 minutes of a 2-hour run, but it is not true for the remaining 1 hour and 40 minutes when the spellcaster is running on empty.

- Driven does 480 damage w/6 attacks /round, strike does 350 damage, so total of 830.
- Warrior does 500+ damage w/5 attacks / round, 100 damage from broadside, total of 600.
- A spellcaster w/150+ spelldam and good spellsaves will do about 400 damage on average for disintegrate, and weapon damage is going to cap somewhere around 50/pound, so the math comes out to 5*50+(400*5/6) = 583.

Of course, if you include firewinds/frostbolts, the mage is doing 1k+ per round, as that's the whole point of a mage... they have massive damage capability, but it doesn't last forever. Warriors and monks can go all day long. Refer back to my posts on tradeoffs of offense/defense, sustained/burst damage, plus risk levels.

Warriors run around with -15 ac, monks run around with -11 ac, mages run around with... -5? -7? Do you not see the balance of damage levels in light of defense? Do you not see the balance of damage levels in light sustained vs. burst?