Mudstats and state of our playerbase

[*Splork*]

Here is the website we relied heavily on to watch our numbers and the numbers of other muds:

http://mudstats.com/Game/SlothMUDIII.aspx

it has some nice information regarding where we were a couple of years ago( just about dead as a mud ) to where we are now, player wise.

Enjoy,
Splork

[jezer]

Hold on Splork, this supports the player base doing well... it does NOT support characters playing over 4x40 are doing well... and you should know by doing a quick count in your head of just how many people have quit, in particular the older clans such as DS, Greedy, DOW and Legends before or just on 4x40. Don't make me start listing them. If these stats show anything, it's that we are more newbie friendly, which is a good thing. The fact remains about half the players are not continuing after 2-4x40. Remove the immortal chars and long termers from the 17 active players over 4x40 and whose left?

When I look at player stats I see new players who never played s3 aren't making it to 3x40.

Also how long are they logged in for? Your stats counts it as a +1. We have people in the top 20 3x40 list not even making 100m in a week. I'd suggest your bad interpretation of these stats just proves to highlight the difference between the perceived and the actual you have, this is the point I am trying to make. Your decisions are out of touch with how things are, based on false logic.

[*Splork*]

It supports the fact we even have a player base as compared to 08 when the game was dead.

Thes stats point out average numbers compared to similar times of years past. While the game is far from perfect we are doing much better than most MUDs and much better as a whole from two years ago.

I'd clearly suggest you stop putting words in my mouth.
Splork

[jezer]

While the game is far from perfect

Ok, so the game needs some tweaking, what are the plans? What actions can we take to solve the problems and put things back on track?

1) To help players do the other side of sloth, improving there eq and questing as opposed to mindless xp, I think you should lower the cleric supps 1x40. It brings the nightmare down to the level where characters just start gaining the power to bring down bigger mobs by themselves if required, or if circumstances/timezones don't allow for a workable group.

2) XP loss on death should be cut again... mainly to reflect the fact solo xp is significantly lower and harder in s4 because of the cuts to hitroll and some of our favourite nongroup xp areas.

3) XP bonus for levels sounded like a good idea... however I do feel this will only further highlight the differences that some areas give in xp. Ie, my argument of not being able to deathgrip a maenad for 30k, but gripping a oly poorper for 500k... That idea will make these margins look even worse. Is it not better to fix areas before this is factored in, so it will be consistent?

4) Be open and share the vision for the awesomeness at 9x40 and give us something to get excited about. Redo the avatar guide and show token costs and what we can buy etc?

Any concessions in these 4 areas would surely receive a positive response from players?

We love gems, and we love the 8 class system, we love the new quest shops, max stat, changes to eq have proved not too bad, changes to auctioning goods etc. But if you prune a rose to much, it won't always bounce back, sometimes it will die. Throw the dog a bone!

[*Splork*]

Great questions actually and my answers are probably not going to please anybody...

I've left my job as an IT specialist to go back to my Gov't factory position. My hours have gone from 9-5, five days a week to 12:30 PM to 1 AM, nearly 7 days a week. I am in the process of buying my first home which takes up the rest of my day along with spending a few minutes with my son and family. My time here has been stomped on which is exactly why I have delegated, mostly behind the scenes, many of the aspects of my responsibilities here to others. Isabo is the head coder and has full access to anything he needs to fix/run the game, Chobbs runs many aspects of the game and is now a coder. Neptune is the head builder. I hate the fact I have not played the game in over three months and have not been able to contribute( except for crash fixes or emergency things such as the other night) but I am taking precautions and steps to make sure the game keeps running itself. I have lost some sense of the game which is why I rely so heavily on others and have since the beginning of this version of sloth.

1) I have given supplication very little thought, Id like to hear more on why these changes are needed. Most of us ( immortals ) have felt that group mobs are just that, group. If a player now and again can solo group eq mobs, fine but overall, this is the design of the game and probably will not change. Im sorry if groups are not always available but soloing demo or krakken will most likely be frowned upon:) Some equipment can only be acquired through use of joining a group.

2) We can lower the penalties and chances of level loss again. I also like the idea that Nobody put forth in a previous post. Im really debating not allowing a player to have exp loss or level loss two deaths in a row. So if a player dies today, they are exempt from any penalties the next time.

3) Adjusting 250 areas is simply an impossibility. We have helped in this area by coding features which can target an area and adjust exp up or down as a whole. While this isnt fixing the underlying issue, it helps us as quickly as possible. We have not made area xp adjustments in a year+, we can check out areastats and add much more exp to the game by amping up these areas. I WILL get this done this weekend.

* I really do still like the idea of additional xp bonuses per total levels though...

4) The avatar guide has been redone and is somewhere on the new website or it wasnt added in yet. Benq is on vacation another week and I will talk to him then.

As for what people can buy and for how much, that wasnt decided yet and we are open for suggestions. We want to keep avatar lights for sure and have tons of stuff to buy. Its a great way to add player power and an awesome way to remove coins.

The reason we "nerfed" everything for this version of sloth is simple and it had to be done: its easier to add back to the game then take away. Also, removing things from the game leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth while adding back to the game makes everyone feel all warm inside. The game had gotten grossly out of whack at the end of S3. It needed to be done. Because of these "nerfs", we have been able to add features like gems, Neptune and others can get eq approved that would of NEVER of been added in s3. Regens, hitrolls, damrolls can all be increased, etc etc.

I'm heading back to work, hope this answers some things and I'm sorry I haven't had time to finish much of the work we have had planned. Ive been helping run sloth as one of its' main creator for nearly a decade now and its taken a back seat for the last few months.

Im always open for suggestions, I may not get back to people as quickly as I used to. This version of Sloth has been different since its inception, player ideas are added and considered way more than in the past and its a nice precedent to set and live by.

Splork

[jezer]

I was pleased to hear about Isabo being given the power to do more, as a natural progression of you being able to do less due to your time commitments. I don't know Isabo well, but from what I've seen, I'd say it's in good capable hands, even if inevitably we won't agree on some points. Chobbs was also making some cool changes - ie, druid pets Vendor etc

I still think the area xp inconsistency is a cancer in sloth, that will need to be dealt with eventually. As much as I appreciate this is a hell of a lot of work to fix, the system could be fixed by having a more "generic centralised formula" for the entire mud instead of individual areas wavering to much on the amounts as they seem to do at the moment. If this were setup correctly and calculated on player and mob variables... the mobs xp could be calculated, and no need for builders to get mobs "approved" making less work for administration. I also think killing a mob over 20 rounds of it hitting less should be worth the same or more xp as a hard hitting 3 round wonder stab mob. ie, Time wasted is equal to damage taken. It would be a hard task to complete, now the game is already underway - but not impossible, it would just take some sample data to make sure it's balanced at all ends.

I'm not looking to use nightmare to bring down Ravensglade. I want it to help kill Oni and Granitecrusher, typically I could kill these in 2 or 3 runs atm if I had a nightmare. The only mobs I ever recall running, that I probably should not have been able to run was Mayor in Ravensglade and the eternal flame - needless to say that took ages! Instead of making nightmare such a reach because you don't want people to cycle group mobs... why not compromise... making it so a nightmare only works on mobs dependent on the players level. You don't always have to go for the yes and no answer, you can go for the grey one. I don't get eudaemon till 6x40, like in the old sloth nearly EVERY player had it by 3-4x40 max. In the new sloth 6x40 is almost equivalent to having two Avatars in s3. I still hope it's gets adjusted. If you reply talk to Isabo... I will be!

I potentially can not solo oni till 6x40 at the moment, that doesn't seem right!

[Dragoth]

Jezer im sorry but you sound like a communist - every area should use the same code to calculate the exp, every player should get the same exp, blah blah blah.

How about mobs that pop eq, should they still dish out great exp ?
How about a player that doesnt know how to use his abilities and doesnt have great eq, does he still deserve to get exp that's just as good as others ? Now how about a char that has a really crappy class order, should he get the same exp as the others ?

If you want nightmare at 3x40 not 6x40, why dont you make a cleric prime instead of a cleric tert ? If you have chosen a class order that cant solo a 3mil mob at 3x40 why should anyone else care and why should you now ask immortals to try and change the game to cater to your needs while you continue saying how much you enjoy your classo?

[jezer]

blah blah blah

Yes I'm a communist on xp, although the stupid ideas you put in my mouth I didn't agree with. Some of your stupid ideas could actually be worked into the overall xp formula anyway. I don't think your choosing to try and see how it could actually work... a little to desperate to shoot off your mouth without thinking... Any number of variables can be created to make something work... it's the very nature of programming... the more variables the more things it can work for. Yes, I'm calling you stupid. If you work in IT, I certainly wouldn't hire you. Centralization is a key to maintainability.

Shiftforms and Supplication positions were changed AFTER the game had restarted and I'd already invested heavily in my character, some people were already 3x40. The changes were a knee jerk reaction, and little to no thought went into the true effect of the changes. I don't think it's unreasonable to say hey, those changes were a little harsh and impromptu how about a rethink.

[Dragoth]

Im not saying your communist ideas are impossible, i am saying - why should it be so ? Why should everything be the same, some areas give better exp than others, because they are easier to reach, they have less aggro mobs, or simply because the immortal who created the area wanted it to be that way.

As for your troubles with supplications - you started the character pretty late and i remember distinctly supplication changes being in the game even when i started playing the game and it was still early days, so you are either lying or dont remember exactly what happend.

And calling me stupid does not make you or your arguments smarter.

[jezer]

As for your troubles with supplications - you started the character pretty late

Wrong, Day One. Worked it to multiple 40 before taking a break moving to countries. I was interested in Jezer's class order after playing Apprentice in sloth 3, I liked Apprentice but I really wanted some versatility after the experience. Cleric 3rd was based on getting nightmare at about the time my druid powers start to develop. I can still get a nightmare, it's just a loooonnnggg haul, I think a change of 1x40 would be happily accepted and more the "middle line" of game progress, I'll put you down as a no.

As for making some areas less xp. I don't like this idea, but once again... it's just another variable for the formula to adjust the outcome by a percentage for the area... or a percentage for a mob. If you love this idea so much, go run perseverance... seriously!.. oh? you don't want to? You just think the game should have useless crap areas no one runs...? oooookkk.

>And calling me stupid does not make you or your arguments smarter.
That's actually true... but you have to admit, you flamed me without thinking to much. You just objected straight away to my idea without thinking deeper about it and let me have it.

[Dragoth]

There are certain areas that noone runs and there was a topic about that already quite some time ago. And immortals had their say in it. Basically what it boiled down to was that not all areas are supposed to be there just for the exp, some provide better exp, some provide gold, others have lots of autoquest, eq etc - basically all that i have told you.

As for me shutting you out so quick - whats wrong me having some preconceptions regarding this topic when i have actually heard the exact same conversation before, yes i've been here a long time ! Just because i responded so quick you assumed i just wanted to contradict you, but you know what they say about assumptions.

As for supplications, i did start the game in the early months so im not sure when this change was, but when i started caring about supplications, eudaemons were already 4x40. Im pretty sure Splork can confirm if it was changed midgame or right at the start.

Anyway, Splork is just going to just tell you the same thing about the exp code as it's already been talked over before - aint gonna happen bub.

[jezer]

Anyway, Splork is just going to just tell you the same thing about the exp code as it's already been talked over before - aint gonna happen bub.

You could be right, although Isabo may have slightly different ideas than Splork, and raise the number of levels required for nightmare.

I know my outspokenness has lead to changes on more than one occasion, the latest being the number of attacks on naga form after proving my secondary class was as powerful as my primary class. Of course the changes are never exactly what I want, but I think the verbal jousts about the game we have on the forum actually do achieve positive changes every now and then even through compromise. I'm glad you spoke out, even though we won't always/ever agree, but it's probably just my communist tendency

There is that famous saying "All that is needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." I'm not saying that evil is succeeding on sloth, but I am suggesting we speak out more with positive ideas... instead of the quiet bitterness and murmuring we do amongst ourselves feeling that the fight for change is worthless. There are many people that read these threads and say nothing, it annoys me. I bet they have a lot of valuable things to add... even if they don't agree with me, it's good for the game. Splork has caved in sometimes and done what players wanted if you can provide solid arguments, and the debate will be heated... it's give and take.

[*Splork*]

The experience algorithm already includes an obnoxious amount of variables, including hitpoints, damrolls, procs, armor class, etc of a creature.

Shapeshift forms were changed in the first few months of S4. Supplication was spread out at the beginning of this version, from what I can remember and see using CVS logs.

Awaken and the necro spells were changed during first few months of s4 as well, to use the supplication method to increase importance of class position.


Just an fyi.
Splork

[Dragoth]

I absolutely agree with you on one thing Jezer, if we dont like something and we are quiet, those things in the game are never going to a change.

If you do feel that something isnt right it's your responsibility to get this across to immortals and creators so they can at least pay attention to the problem - whether they decide against your propositions is another issue, but at least you've tried your best. I think it's in both players and immortals best interests that player's concerns are voiced. And i am positive that with Splork as a creator, certain things do get across and they actually get changed, unlike in Sloth3 where nothing coming from a players mouth ever mattered.

[*Chobbs*]

Mornin' folks,

I really like newbies. They're curious, they explore, they're fresh new faces. But most importantly, they do not have all these preconceived notions of how sloth *should* be, but rather play it as the game it is.

Veterans want a old game, but completely different. "Fix all the problems. Give us more stuff". Thanks guys, very helpful. While we do this, fix world hunger, give us world peace. How? I don't know, just fix it. Give us stuff, since we want more. More power, more hp, more regen, more more more.

Old exp areas are just that, they're old, they're dated. After running prong horns for years, do you really want to keep running the same mobs again for more years?

Shake off your preconceived notions and try playing sloth4 instead of reminiscing about sloth3.

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About a year ago, I redid a few areas and mobs, one of which was ogre caverns. Used to be pretty terrible grip/blast exp, a lot of pain for maybe 300k apiece. Who knows if it's better now, since 'better' is a matter of opinion. But I did learn that revamping an area into a semi worthwhile one takes an absurd amount of time. And it's a thankless job that more often than not brings nothing but harsh criticisms. Rebalancing one area, let alone the 100+ ones ingame that really need retouching, is rough work.

Change the exp calculator at the root? Sure! But how. Based on hp? But there are fat stab/blast mobs out there that would grow bloated. Damage? That would reduce some of the low damage mobs to nothing. Changing it would also lower exp on various mobs as well, which is pretty much what happened before. There are always ramifications to tweaking with something so ubiquitous.

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I've honestly never been a fan of nightmares. Haunt+ blast blast blast regen is more tedious than large grouping. I prefer mobs with fewer hitpoints so you never need to use a nightmare, but there seems to be some curious belief that this is the only way to solo things, or that all mobs need to be soloable.

Lower nightmare to 1x40 so that anyone with 40 cleric can 'solo' everything. Why?

Can't solo oni til 6x40? I really didn't think you were that bad of a player.

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It's true, if we aren't aware of a problem, we can't fix it. But there is also something to be said for how we're notified, and the nature of the problem. When someone whines on crier, or berates the imm staff or specific imms, I become strongly disinclined to help the fellow. This tacit 'silence' that you've observed regarding problems could also mean that a lot of folks are able to live with the status quo, or that you're the only one that even sees it as a problem. A lot of people could be fine with the way things are.

We are here to help the playerbase, but please remember, this is a hobby, not our jobs. And despite the 'immortal' title, we're still people too.

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Sloth isn't perfect, it's true. But what game is? Sloth is a great game. Maybe if you stop focusing just on the negative, one day you'll see that too.

Chobbs