The new classes are overpowered.

[Qa]

In other threads, one or another of the imms have made comments something along the lines of "that's a new class spell/skill and we won't give it to the original classes because then all the classes would be the same."*

That's fine. Makes sense to me.

Now explain to me why Druids (and the other new classes) are so hugely overpowered?

A 1x40 Druid with lowbie EQ will outregen a 5x40 Cl/Ma in regen EQ. Not by 1 or two points, but by about 15% and have a higher max mana. How can anyone call this anything close to balanced?

A Necro prime 1x40 can solo stuff that 5x40s cannot. Deathtouch is stronger than a typical 5x40 Thief's +20-22 stab. It seems like I could go on and on.

As it sits right now, 1x40 Druids and Necros are more powerful than Avatar Clerics. They hit harder, regen faster, AND get all the new tricks. Druids and Necros get all (or similar) of my spells and skills plus being more powerful. I am sick of seeing Clerics get stiffed.

When the new classes were introduced, the imms asked that we 'wait and see.' They would tune the new classes and get everything balanced. I have waited, and I hope that I am presenting my opinions is a respectful manner. I consider the imms on sloth friends, and hope that we can remain that way. However, it is my opinion that the balance that the imms claimed would happen has never arrived.

In my opinion we either need to let the original classes in on all of the powerful new stuff, or nerf the heck out of the new classes to make up for their given advantages.

Qa

*Yeah, KJ said it just recently, but I have seen it other times from most of the imms.

Edited to add:
Let the flames begin - I am wearing my nomex suit.

[*Splork*]

All I can say is I disagree with the majority of this. The new classes are only powerful when combined with the old. Just as it can be said many old style classes can be overpowered when combined with new. Such as a wa mo, or a cl dr or thief bard or thief monk etc, etc.

I'm sorry but I think we are as balanced as a mud as we have been in years.
Sure, there are still things we need to do but the major changes have been made.


There will always be those who speak about old vs new classes until we do a pwipe-which we don't want to do...

Years went by with little to no development for the old classes, we have been putting effort the last year+ for these classes and it should be noticeable.



Thief
Search
Palm
Sixth Sense
Disarm Traps
Crippling Strike
Urban Stealth
sleight of hand
evade capture
purloin aura
Sleight of Hand

*Circle damage greatly improved

Warrior
Charge
Swordmaster
Endure pain
frenzy
bloodrage
stomp
broadside
critical hit
entrench
engage
oath victory
oath protection
toss
deathblow
critical hit
warcry
riposte
mass crit
sharpen
berserk
defy pain

Mage
haste
improved haste
slow
corrosive surge
hermetic ward
thunder clap
sandstorm
grease
convocation
frostbolt
hermetic resonance
succor
blizzard

cleric
*About the only thing I can think of is improved servant and supps
**But as I've always said, personally think cleric is too important as is to improve upon it...

I'm sure I've missed atleast 10 more spells or skills but I am in a hurry so...
Enjoy,
Splork

Honestly, if you are going to compare old class vs new, have someone create an entire new class character- one of us will run an all old class character. The new class character can probably solo a much larger mob but I bet an old class character will outgain in xp...And I bet the exp difference would be huge:)

Ofcourse, these are only my opinions and look forward to them being debated

[12345]

Ok, I don't entirely agree with Qa, but I don't disagree with him either. In the area of casting, there's some fairly hardcore differences between old and new schools. Before anyone starts flaming, let's take a look...

First, Thief and Warrior. Great classes. Warrior gives some really nice equipment options, thief gives stab, lots of attacks.. yay. Neither gives any kind of extra mana at all. Monk gives extra mana in second, and Bard gives extra mana in fourth. If you're going to be a prime caster, either of these and another mana class is a better choice. Having the option of 3x or 4x caster further jacks up mana totals and masterful rates. Wedging in druid in prime or second turns you into a straight battery.

New classo clerics (cl/dr or dr/cl) are massively powered healing machines. Eudeamons, dark mace and aerial servants can make even a newbie into a healing machine. There's nothing wrong with the class at all. The problem is with having two non-mana classes wedged into the end of your classo.

Let's demonstrate:

Warrior - 0 caster
Thief - 0 caster
Monk - 1/4 caster
Bard - 1/2 caster
Necro - caster
Cleric - caster
Mage - caster
Druid - caster + battery (4/3 caster)

So why would I want to be a cl/ma/wa/th (2x caster) when I can be a cl/dr/(ne or ma)/ba (~4x caster)? You'd have to be stupid to choose those classes on your own. You're giving up mana regen, mana and masterfuls for warrior equipment and a class that does almost nothing outside prime. Not the smartest choice.

I've made the case before that thief needs skills that make it worthwhile in the 2nd-4th classes.... unfortunately, I have no idea what those should be. Improvements have been made to the class, and I commend Splork and Kj for that. Its getting closer but still needs some help I think.

Warrior skills, equipment options and statos make up for the lack of mana. This class is vastly improved, I still don't know that I would knowingly choose it as a support classo to a casting prime over bard or monk.... it depends on how I wanted to play I guess.

I can tell you that with the current class setup, I know players that play every prime as the wrath of god. Shyla and Krok probably top the list for clerics and are old school.

So, I don't think there's anything wrong with clerics, at all. I think you have poor supporting classes. Considering that the only classes I would still term as 'poor' are warrior and thief, I think that's the problem. The only way I know to fix such a problem is to boost their value as supporting classes.

Splork and Kj are currently boosting the hell out of warrior. They're working on thief, but could probably use some help coming up with some realistic improvements to the class.

That might not be a perfect assessment, but I think it will solve your issue faster than trying to improve cleric will.

[Avatar]

I can definitely empathize with Qa. I have multiple characters, so I'm always glad to see warriors get those new skills. That's a huge list for warriors, and I think warriors are definitely more interesting and enjoyable to play these days. Mages too have seen improvement. I haven't played a mage prime, but to have multiple high-end blast spells was a nice change to see. If mobs have more resistances to one or more type of attack, then the available variety of blasts will make mages a lot more interesting to play.

Clerics though seem to be continually neglected. Sure everyone says it's an important class and I'd hate to play a classo that skips cleric entirely, but cleric primes are rough. I've never seen anyone (imm or player) argue that cleric primes are equally as powerful as the other classes. Splork won't say it. They're not, it's a simple fact.

This is especially true if you're trying to solo. You have to apply damage in order to kill something, and that's just not a strength of clerics. If you solo as a cleric, you're effectively soloing using your other class abilities but with none of the prime benefits. If you're a cl/th, you solo as a thief but with an extremely weak stab. If you solo as a cl/ma, you're blasting but with lower spellbonus max and a whole lot less eq options. I pity the cl/ne, who solo as a necro but with weak undead and the order lag of a non-prime necro. In the old days, clerics could at least use liches to help inflict damage, but that was removed and we got supplication instead. Well, this is a whole separate topic but to summarize I'll just say that I really really dislike supplication as a cleric prime. It's pretty easy for the rest of the community here to say 'Ahh the peri rocks!' and noone will argue about eudaemon, it's a nice pet. Yeah, they are great when you're not a cleric - you have a prime class to do damage and whatever cleric abilities help keep you alive or save time regenning are a nice bonus. Try using supplication forms to actually help kill a mob, and I think you'll agree that they are close to worthless. On top of that, the alignment system is still broke. Sure it's only an irritation or inconvenience for most players, but if you are cleric prime and trying to rely on supplication...well, I guess I don't have to continue. Supplication is a poor replacement for the old liches, and with the current alignment system it's less than poor. It's a neat trick but not worth using.

I guess it should be obvious that I totally dislike the order lag for non-prime followers. That just hurts anyone who might be trying to use a non-prime class to help solo - and it should be apparent that cleric primes are going to be hurt the worst.

All that said, I've still tried playing a lot of clerics. I'd never use one to solo, of course. Even as a healer I'm sorry to say that my druid seems to be a better healo than any of my cleric primes. It seems that noone has spent much time considering how clerics fit into the game and what their strengths should be.

Those are my opening thoughts, and I'm also ready for the debate.

[*Splork*]

Its rather simple, I don't view cleric primes as being soloers. I never have and I never will. So their skills and spells are pointed towards helping groups. I view them as the most overpowered class in the mud. I guess I feel this way because you can not pick a classo without it and expect much-except a great challenge.

So now imagine our difficulty when trying to come up with new stuff for clerics. We have to do it in a way that doesnt make them any more powerful-if that makes sense...

We would love to add more prime only abilities-this would be about the only way to accomplish this. Then the problem is kj and myself are not fans of prime only abilities.

I know clerics are in need, my character Pal was the highest cleric on s3 when I retired long ago. And to be honest, they havent seen much improvement since. It sucks, but I'm at a loss at what to do. Similar to adding more thief stuff- We would love to-but ideas are hard to come by at this time.

We are trying...

Splork

[jezer]

Yes, I'm noobish but here are my thoughts in point form...

1) Yes cleric's are underpowered (primes only)
2) Yes cleric's by the nature of there class shouldn't be good at solo
3) Yes I think clerics should have more prime skills

An idea that comes to mind is allowing prime clerics to run with two supplicants... I'm not talking 2 pit masters... I'm talking one fighting supplicant and a healing supplicant peri/eudaemon or maybe a lesser fighting supplicant.

That way primes are more powerful... its not the cleric that is soloing the huge stuff, but more there supplicants working, and they get a useful new prime skill.

[Qa]

[quote="*Splork*":3sjujw97]We are trying...

Splork[/quote:3sjujw97]

I know you are trying, Splork. I am glad we can discuss this and not flame each other.

I will be out of town for a couple of days, and want to think before responding. I have been considering this post for a year - another couple of days before me posting any more is a good thing...

Qa

[13]

[quote:2spsumep]A 1x40 Druid with lowbie EQ will outregen a 5x40 Cl/Ma in regen EQ. Not by 1 or two points, but by about 15% and have a higher max mana. How can anyone call this anything close to balanced? [/quote:2spsumep]

Now take a 1x40 mage and stack him up with spelldamage gear and see who
does more damage to a mob. All druids have is forms and margn. It's a
whole class wasted for like 2 spells and some margn. Talk to Roy about
soloing with an all-oldschool cl prime.

[13]

How about a heal-over-time with a recast timer.

[Shara]

I'd probably bet that Mace and Krok solo better than anyone without necro in his/her classo (and some who do), but maybe that's unfair cuz they're 5x40

[Mosaix]

I like a lot of the posts here.

Splork,

Seems from reading there is an understanding of running a cleric prime, and the difficulty of assisting that choice vs. beefing cleric in general.

Since heals are a part of the game, and most clerics are requested to help raise and heal a group maybe the reward for that could be something other than skills or spells.

Add cleric based eq to the game. Mana, healbonus, sys shock etc. Regular eq could be collected to enhance our daily duties. Since more than likely only a cleric prime would hunt that down it would be a help.
I dont want to hear about the +5 healbonus rings currently in, thats not exactly helpful.

Add rockin cleric prime eq to the drachma shop. Perhaps even at a cheaper level than normal, showing gratitude for healing and raising the entire mud. The essence of life, and the healbonus robes are the only 2 reasonable priced items for cleric. The rest in Faur for example is other robes, and tankish thalassan eq.

Adding cleric prime eq would only effect maybe 5 regular players. But those taking the time and energy to run one, could be rewarded for keeping those alive and healed with better eq.

I know this was tossed out at one point long ago, but mages have spell stones, why cant clerics, possibly even just prime, have cleric stones. Wouldnt a cleric prime be tuned enough to his/her craft to be able to mem cleric spells?

Just trying to think of something.

Mosaix

[Avatar]

Again, I can only echo Qa. It's good to see that people are receptive to the general discussion, but I'm not sure what to suggest.

A dispel evil that gets better as you level up might be nice. Clerics vs. undead / demons / devils could have something nicer to blast with. Perhaps some sort of disrupt spell that does higher damage but only vs. full mobs...something to start off a battle vs. undead.

Even something that enhances our capability to heal during groups would be nice. Most of the experienced players here have already shifted to druids as healers.

Some additional spells to modify alignment might be nice, to help us control alignment swings. It hardly helps to atone after you lose an existing good supplicant as soon as you kill a good mob. You can atone after the kill, but you already lost your supp.

More/better healbonus eq in game would definitely be nice. It hardly helps to have an increased healbonus cap when you have to be a middie tard before you can reach that cap. +10 healbonus clasps for rings would be nice.

I'm sure as more people think of ideas, some will come up that may help to improve the situation.

Charles

[12345]

I know you keep mentioning good sups Charles but you may be placing too much stock in them. I once suggested that eudaemons were helpful for her and she straight laughed at me. Evil sups seemed to be much more to her taste. Considering that clerics biggest drawback is physically damaging mobs, I can see how something with lots of strong attacks might be useful

[Cicada]

I suggest prime skill for clerics "Heresy" (or maybe "Free will"? ) that allows cleric to change his alignment at will. Can be quite useful for those who rely on their supps perhaps. I'm not sure though, never used/fixed alignment stuff.

Cicada

[Weasel]

I thought clerics did get some sort of bonus for raises / heals already?

An idea.. perhaps coders don't want to make clerics too super-healing strong, so perhaps have differing healing caps when healing others as opposed to healing themselves. A higher cap on self-healing would allow them to solo a bit more, without making them too powerful for group healing, yes?