Bard 8x40 Dragonmail Broken

[Hung]

I would like to elaborate more on why prime skills are important. And why you can't simply make one obsolete.
Prime skills make classes unique. And provide rationale behind choosing your class.

I mean not long ago, one newbie asked me if they should choose cleric. I answered that one of the cleric powers is being bane to the undead. At that moment, I didn't know how OP Spharai was.
Today I'd advice to choose druid over cleric. As druids are literally better in every regard. In past, there was an exception of fighting undead/ether. Now even that exception is gone. And thus Spharai eliminates not just the dark mace, but the whole prime class.

p.s. The most sad thing is there were many cool changes in the recent years. Like revamp of the drachma eq. Or introduction of new 3x40/6x40/8x40 items. Conquest system is amazing. New thief skills are great too. I am grateful to devs who did all that.
Unfortunately at some stage the game took the wrong turn. And devs decided to introduce truly revolutionary changes, not caring how it affects the original balance. And here we are.

[cnl]

I have to agree with Insom here. the way is forwards.

sphairai and artifacts added a lot to the game. they've been in the game since i've played (5 years) but i appreciate the work put into them.

that's not to say some strategic reworking of things isn't always on the table. whether to add some features or tweak others.

but if you read the forum - there is always someone worked up about some change or another. this mythical golden age never existed except the twinkle of youth had not left our eyes. it gets tiresome.

i will say as someone actually playing a small cleric, it's fun. dark mace is pretty cool. it does get useless, yes, but its a skill you get a level 20 something on your prime.

you think classo is missing something. then play it and get to 9x40. see how it really compares. make some suggestions.

[Hung]

but if you read the forum - there is always someone worked up about some change or another. this mythical golden age never existed except the twinkle of youth had not left our eyes. it gets tiresome.

Changes of such truly revolutionary scale haven't been seen for decades. And that's a fact.
Though everyone is free to choose their attitude towards it.
I realize that majority likes the changes. However there are a few critics like me.
I've offered universal solution in the past - make game fork called "Sloth Classic". Which would be current game minus energy drain, sphairai and everything op.
I understand that solution is highly unrealistic. As devs don't have enough manpower to properly run even one instance of the game(i.e. see the broken site).
But still that's the solution to make everyone happy.

[cnl]

interesting. there's actually a progression of dark maces built in.

recite identify mace
You recite a scroll of identify which dissolves.
You feel informed:
Object 'dark mace large 4x40 *Fulgent*', Item type: WEAPON
Item is: HUM PERSONAL MAGIC RESTRUNG SANCBUSTER
Weight: 5, Value: 0gold, Worn in: TAKE WIELD
Damage Dice is '3D6'
Can affect you as:
Affects: HITROLL by 3
Affects: HEAL_BONUS by 2
Affects: REGEN_MANA by 3
Only those who are primary experienced clerics may use this item.

neat

[Hung]

Well, I saw 9x40 reborn cleric using Spharai. It's better than even best dark mace.

[Hung]

Gonna make another post in the topic, since some people said "You dont even have a Sphairai. How could you make a judgement about it?"
Well, now I got Spharai. And thoroughly tested it.
And it's as great as I thought. My character is monk and now I enjoy deadly combo of wraithtouch+Sphairai.

So now I can say that my original estimate was correct: Spharai seriously shifts inter-class balance. It devalues clerics and bards, that once held superiority in fighting ether mobiles. It's also important to note, that those classes were weakest in the terms of solo already. Now they became even more weaker.

In fact I own a 6x40 bard. And had hard time choosing which char to play - monk or bard - as both are fun. Existance of Spharai was ultimate argument that made me choose the monk.

Anyway, I'd suggest buffing both clerics and bards.

As for clerics, I'd suggest following Fuligin's suggestion and granting them primary spell 'dark empowerment' that will make any wielded weapon acquire the dark mace powers.

As for bards, maybe it makes sense to add like 20 damage when fighting an ether under 'song of the mist'.

I seriosly believe that a prime skill is supposed to be leagues above a similar drachma item.

[Driven]

Sphairai was needed to rebalance all caster classes relative to non-caster classes.
- Non-caster damage scales indefinitely with very few caps -- warriors are the worst offender.
- As groups transitioned from regen-every-so-often to non-stop, casters were left in the dust with no mana, while non-casters continued to pump out massive damage.
- The general disbalance was seen very easily in the higher levels of the coliseum.
- Giving caster classes general dominance over ether mobs was part of this balance.

Can non-casters use Sphairai? Of course, but it is by no means ideal. For example, a monk using a sphairai is perhaps the worst possible way to gain xp as a monk -- a nice way to take down larger ether mobs? Sure, but not efficient at all.

Bard's prime song can be cast on a follower while the bard himself wields a sphairai, so the "extra damage" is already there. I'm not against boosting clerics/bards. We did try to boost clerics a while back by having heal bonus apply to turn undead -- were you aware of this change? Are there other changes you can think of that fit within the theme of the primes? Personally I think bard primes should get XP from charmed followers like necros do from their undead followers--either that or a bard prime song that causes mobs to follow the bard, where the order lag is similar to necros for their undead.

FWIW, a bard/necro in end-game will absolutely crush a monk prime in terms of taking down larger mobs, both ether and solid.

[Hung]

Yeah, I got it that the original intent of adding Sphairai was to make casters more balanced.
However in reality, Sphairai is just a great improvement over the spiritual hammer.
That's why even majority of non-casters like that item.
As the need to fight an ether occurs once in a while.
Particularly modern xp groups add a handful of ethers to their runs. And it helps when group members have Spharais for such cases.

As for prime bard 'song of the mist', it affects both the bard and the target. Hence there's no "extra damage". And no need for a bard to have Spharai(it's the only class that doesnt need it).

I am not aware about the turn undead's boost. Probably unless it does damage comparable to the firewind, it keeps being the spell useful only on low levels.

As for charmed followers, it definitely would be nice if bards could get xp from them. New prime song is decent idea too. But I must admit that generally I consider charms as great op. I always thought it's only there since the playerbase is tiny and adventurers still need to somehow pop their gear.
Generally I believe that buffing bards should be done by making charisma more useful.
As right now, the only serious benefit of it is song 'sanctuary for the soul'. A few epics literally couldn't be killed without that song played by highly charismastic prime bard.

As for end-game ba/ne. I think literally every class order becomes extremelly powerful when maxed out. I never reached that stage, but from what I heard, even prime class differences fade there.
But that stage is very far away.
The game doesnt start at being 9x40 reborn. But it starts at level 1.