New 3x40 Items

[norks]

FYI: I don't get those damage figures. I average 20.4 staff damage and 375 proc damage. Don't get me wrong: it's the best weapon I've had, but your estimations are way off.

[Gorka]

30 * 20.4 = 612
5 * 375 = 1875

Total = 2487

If Nork's numbers are true, I have a lot less of a problem with it. 20.4 damage is feeble, do you have any dam or weapon dam? This weapon needs to be caster restricted though. Gorka has over 50 dam to add to any weapon, not to mention massive critical hit damage. Do not let players like me have this weapon. If you don't restrict me, it will be the next thing I try to get. Even if I had to rebirth a second time to get another 3 tokens... if that ever becomes a thing.

[Driven]

I will have to work through your numbers, but it seems like at first glance you mixed eqsets to get your whip and staff melee damage in combination with 430 firewinds. Said another way, there is no eqset that provides 437 damage firewinds and a 72.5 average damage on the pound. Your 72.5 average pound includes two things: warrior prime crit rate and 24 weapon damage. To get 437 damage winds, you are probably at -23 saves and 100 spell damage, and your weapon damage is probably 13 (the 10 you bought from the avatar shop plus the 3 damroll you bought).

I think the average pound from a ridiculously capped out mage is closer to the 13 weapon dam plus the weapon damage of 4d6, which is 14, so average damage is 27, not 72.5. Let's throw in the practically non-existant crits that caster prime with warrior 5th-or-below gets and their weapon dam might be 35 on average. To give you something closer to reality, Norks is 8.36 rebirth and his average pound is 20.3. He didn't buy the weapon dam or the damroll, so there you have it.

So at 35 pound damage, you are looking at 1050 melee damage over 30 attacks, not 2295. Add in 5 procs at 450 damage and you get 2250, for a total damage of 3300, compared with your 2922. You are at -14 ac with 1600 hitpoints while a mage is at -7 ac and 1200 hitpoints. The entire game is a tradeoff of offense vs. defense and how the varying points along that curve yield xp. So, in general, as offense goes up, defense should go down, and vice versa. So it doesn't bother me that a mage can do more damage than a warrior, but they get punished for it. Some other unknowns in the equation is Gorka's hitroll vs, a mage's hitroll... all of the melee calculationd assume you are actually hitting the mob. There is a huge difference between 28 hitroll and 15 to 20 hitroll.

Enough to chew on for now... am at a party with friends.

[Gorka]

The whip and firewind numbers I gave should be true if I had the staff. Just give me the staff for an hour and I can come back with some hard data instead of all this guessing. I predict You would give me about a 33% increase on top of my melee damage (It would be even more for players like Norks because his damage is low) in my saves mode... which already gives me more burst damage than anyone on the mud and hence why I have done well in the later parts of the coliseum. The coliseum will be rewritten with that weapon... but who really cares about that anyway...

This is the mode I would run the staff in, it only has 11 less weapon damage than ac. The saves mode is far more powerful than my ac mode in damage output thanks to proc weapons like these.

19hit, 20dam +3 warcry, 24wd, -10.1, 21 saves, 120 spell dam. (Saves)
28hit, 18dam +3 warcry, 35wd, -14, 11 saves, 37 spell dam. (AC)

I would probably be doing about 76dam melee, procing firewinds, and then second winding my own firewinds, starting with a decent stab that might already cripple the mob causing double damage. The game would have seen nothing like it.

It's completely unprecedented in this game to give out such a high damage increase so easily. This is not a damage point this is literally 100's of damage points. Even if mages needed something, It's the grossest increase in the history of this game since death by chocolate or a grenade.

The only thing working in your argument, is that Norks is comparatively feeble due to his poor melee. He's also made choices that put him at a disadvantage by ignoring melee and trying to be a prime in a class he is not prime in. But you have to factor in other players do not make these choices - and it IS a penalty he's taken upon himself and therefore he bears that responsibility personally - not the game.

I'm totally shocked by the causal manner of this increase when I am used to spending hundreds of drachma to try and get +1 damage. I believe that time will show me to be correct, and the game will be cheapened by such a gross and free increase in damage, and rest assured every single player now wants that weapon. If this is not an indication that something is wrong, the other imms need to step in.

If you give me the staff for 1hr I can prove to you the percentage increase it would do to a player like me, and it's not really acceptable, not because I don't want it, or that I wouldn't love to have it myself, but because it's cheapened the game. Hard work in this game should be rewarded, giving out 100's of damage points for free, I just think ruins the game.

But for heavens sake, stop arguing with me, give me the weapon for an hour and lets collect some hard data. This has already gone on long enough without some proper fact checking.

[Driven]

All good points, Gorka. I will lend you the weapon and let's get the facts. In no way do we want to ruin this game, but rather the goal was to provide something worthy of two (and three) 3x40 items into a forge to give more options for playstyle, leading to a deeper game experience..

[Gorka]

Thanks to Maniac who gave me a staff for testing. I went ahead and did as fair a test as I could... Figures below... The short version is, the staff increased Gorka's total damage by about 200 per round, or by 40% over the 6 rounds. The difference the staff makes for any player can be measured as the difference between their firewind and their flamestrike, plus a little extra melee damage. Basically for any mage out there who uses the whip, this item is 200+ damage in 1/6 attacks... (That's attacks... not rounds) It would be like giving me two extra attacks for free or 30-40 unearned bonus weapon dam... it just doesn't make sense.

Gorka – Saves Mode – With Uber Staff

The following bonuses affect you:
Hit Roll : ( 16) [|||||||| ]
Damage : ( 18) [||||||||| ]
Flail Damage : 14% ( 10) [||||||| ]
Damage Red. : 16% ( 4) [|||||||| ]
+Damage Red. : ( 16) [ oo ]
+Stab Damage : ( 10) [ Inactive ]
Spell Bonus : 57% ( 53) [|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Spell Bonus : ( 67) [ oo ]
+Heal Bonus : ( 25) [ Inactive ]
+Hand Damage : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
+Undead Ctrl : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
Charisma : 41% ( 5) [|||||||||||||||||||| ]
Weapon Dam : 48% ( 12) [|||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Weapon Dam : ( 10) [ oo ]
Save Breath : ( -2) [ ]
Save Paralysis: ( -2) [ ]
Save Petrifica: ( -2) [ ]
Save Poison : ( -2) [ ]
Save Spell : 91% (-21) [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]

Damage Dealt Times Average Amount
------------------------------ ----- --------------
Firewind 77 375.1
Pound 374 78.1
Sting 58 87.2

Gorka – Saves Mode – With Old Whip

The following bonuses affect you:
Hit Roll : ( 19) [||||||||| ]
Damage : ( 20) [|||||||||| ]
Flail Damage : 14% ( 10) [||||||| ]
Damage Red. : 16% ( 4) [|||||||| ]
+Damage Red. : ( 16) [ oo ]
+Stab Damage : ( 10) [ Inactive ]
Spell Bonus : 57% ( 53) [|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Spell Bonus : ( 67) [ oo ]
+Heal Bonus : ( 25) [ Inactive ]
+Hand Damage : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
+Undead Ctrl : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
Charisma : 41% ( 5) [|||||||||||||||||||| ]
Weapon Dam : 56% ( 14) [|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Weapon Dam : ( 10) [ oo ]
Save Breath : ( -2) [ ]
Save Paralysis: ( -2) [ ]
Save Petrifica: ( -2) [ ]
Save Poison : ( -2) [ ]
Save Spell : 91% (-21) [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]

Damage Dealt Times Average Amount
------------------------------ ----- --------------
Firewind 48 342.8
Flame strike 17 161.8
Whip 86 73.5

Gorka – AC Mode - With Uber Staff

The following bonuses affect you:
Hit Roll : ( 23) [||||||||||| ]
Damage : ( 16) [|||||||| ]
Flail Damage : 14% ( 10) [||||||| ]
Damage Red. : 44% ( 11) [|||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Damage Red. : ( 16) [ oo ]
+Stab Damage : ( 10) [ Inactive ]
Spell Bonus : 13% ( 12) [|||||| ]
+Spell Bonus : ( 25) [ oo ]
+Heal Bonus : ( 25) [ Inactive ]
+Hand Damage : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
+Undead Ctrl : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
Charisma : 41% ( 5) [|||||||||||||||||||| ]
Weapon Dam : 92% ( 23) [|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Weapon Dam : ( 10) [ oo ]
Save Breath : ( -2) [ ]
Save Paralysis: ( -2) [ ]
Save Petrifica: ( -2) [ ]
Save Poison : ( -2) [ ]
Save Spell : 47% (-11) [||||||||||||||||||||||| ]

Damage Dealt Times Average Amount
------------------------------ ----- --------------
Firewind 40 244.3
Pound 214 87.4
Sting 38 110.9

Gorka – AC Mode – With sword of Valor

The following bonuses affect you:
Hit Roll : ( 28) [|||||||||||||| ]
Damage : ( 18) [||||||||| ]
Flail Damage : 14% ( 10) [||||||| ]
Damage Red. : 44% ( 11) [|||||||||||||||||||||| ]
+Damage Red. : ( 16) [ oo ]
+Stab Damage : ( 10) [ Inactive ]
Spell Bonus : 13% ( 12) [|||||| ]
+Spell Bonus : ( 25) [ oo ]
+Heal Bonus : ( 25) [ Inactive ]
+Hand Damage : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
+Undead Ctrl : ( 5) [ Inactive ]
Charisma : 41% ( 5) [|||||||||||||||||||| ]
Weapon Dam : 100% ( 25) [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||]
+Weapon Dam : ( 10) [ oo ]
Save Breath : ( -2) [ ]
Save Paralysis: ( -2) [ ]
Save Petrifica: ( -2) [ ]
Save Poison : ( -2) [ ]
Save Spell : 47% (-11) [||||||||||||||||||||||| ]

Damage Dealt Times Average Amount
------------------------------ ----- --------------
Firewind 41 274.3
Slash 113 101.7

Notes: Grand Struggle was up entire time. I tried to keep the test as fair as possible, however grace fell for a while affecting my firewinds in my Saves Mode – No Staff test. I have complete logs, if something needs to be checked.

Findings… 30 attack Battle… 5 procs – Total Damage…

No Staff (Saves/Whip) = (73.5 * 30) + (161.8 * 5) = 3,014
No Staff (AC) = (101.7 * 30) = 3,051
With Staff (AC) = (87.4 * 30) + (244 * 5) = 3842
With Staff (Saves) = (78.1 * 30) + (375 * 5) = 4218

Total Increase to Gorka in damage output if he had a staff…
40% in his saves mode or +200dam per round.

To any player the new staff is a damage increase of 200 damage per round.

[Driven]

Thanks for the test! I want to balance the item by keeping the 1/6 proc rate, but lower the spell damage. Can you report back with your damage on hellstrike, ice ray, disint, and thunder clap?

[Gorka]

Flame strike 12 177.5
Ice ray 10 214.7
Destruction 10 227.2
Disintegrate 18 267.2
Thunder clap 10 310.9

You were prepared to give warriors items with +5 Weapon dam at the elitist 8x40 level... that would translate to about 30-40 damage per round extra with 5 attacks on average. Hence I think you should be looking at something in the order of 50 damage more than a flame strike for the staff. In my opinion destruction is a good choice... because it also negates the elemental resistances that the mob may have, that a lot of the times flame strike or firewind won't work on. Disintegrate arguably might go a little bit too far, but up to you. Hellstrike for some reason is almost no improvement on flame strike.

[Josiah]

Just a quick caution:

Destruction and disintegrate have a -con component built in, and do interesting things after the mob's constitution gets to zero. A party full of disintegration staff users might be more obscene than firewind staffs!

As a quick side-note, Gorka wielding the new 'axe of dwarvish kings' should increase his damage by about 56/round over a sword of valor. It has the advantage of not requiring any about saves or spelldam gear.

I was unaware that proc weapons are already eclipsing that output.

[Driven]

Thanks to Gorka and excellent testing and collaboration, I think we have a properly balanced item. The 6x40 staff is now an ice ray proc with the same rate as the EU whip, and we have added -1 saving spell to the item.

Object 'holy staff ancients sext40', Item type: WEAPON
Item is: GLOW PERSONAL MAGIC
Weight: 10, Value: 1gold, Worn in: TAKE WIELD
Damage Dice is '4D6'
Can affect you as:
Affects: MAX_INT by 1
Affects: MAX_WIS by 1
Affects: MANA by 10
Affects: REGEN_MANA by 4
Affects: SAVING_SPELL by -1
Only those who have attained supremacy in at least six
classes may use this item.

Keep the discussions going for other items that appear unbalanced. Is the axe good, or do we need to evaluate it further?

[Josiah]

In light of recent information about actually viable proc weapons, I'm no longer worried about the axe. (I didn't realize there was already a whip with 25 average damage)

In the right gear, the new (nerfed!) holy staff appears to average 50 damage per swing. We may start seeing clerics without their iconic maces in the near future.

The axe doesn't require special gear and probably allows riposte, but it deals only 26 per swing and gives no random buffs (MR/maxwis/saves). If anything, it's under-powered by comparison. A persistent 'frenzy' effect might be cute.

I'll go back to dreaming about +strikedam equipment!

[Ezekiel]

I'm gonna be the guy to go ahead and say it:

Proc weapons' blast damage should be scaled to saves and spellbonus and a lot more and tacked to a base blast amount less.

If you're going to look at 'average dam' based on G's figures, you're not taking into account that while a warrior wears weapondam to increase the damage of his normal weapon while still retaining ac, casters should be able to similarly affect both their casts as well as their weapon blast proc with equipment that they wear. The proc damage on the weapon itself should scale higher dam for those losing ac/dam reduc, etc to sacrifice for blasting power (with saves and spellbonus). It just makes sense with a proc weapon.

Any future proc weapon that comes out will have this same dilemma. Relying too heavily on base amounts currently, the multi-class chars using blast oriented proc weapons (*cough* the ones ironically poking fun at people for playing outside of their prime style) will then cry it makes them too OP average dam wise and is more effective than a warrior weapon (god forbid). Then it gets nerfed- hurting the max proc dam on other end by casters when it shouldn't.

The only solution I can think of that will boost a caster's max dam on proc without making it hugely OP for other tanky multi-class chars is to make innate dam on weapon itself middling and then the proc damage to scale with saves and spellbonus a lot more. Otherwise you'll have this same argument every time. The way it doesn't scale currently cheapens the proc weapons- and will inevitably lead to whittling down all new elite proc weapons due to multi-class tanky types being OP and their arguments being favored over casters, who should be doing more blast proc damage than a non caster without similar blast oriented eq anyway.

For top end caster chars that don't need the max wis and max int...the new staff is essentially close to a whip replica with a save. It's even less desirable compared to just keeping whip because there are waaaay more fire weak mobs, coli mobs are often fire weak, there are waaay more sun and heat houses than winter, etc. Fixed OP on one end, and hurt the classes that were intended to use this as a caster weapon.

Not complaining. We all really appreciate the all the hard work on these items, Driven. But I was interested in a saves proc weapon before this nerf. I just am bringing up a blanket issue about proc weapons I see needs changing.I believe it would be a better remedy than the current fix, not only for this proc weapon, but for any from the past/future.

Again, thanks for all the hard work and taking input from us. You rock.

Just my two cents,
-Ezekiel

[Gorka]

The only solution I can think of that will boost a caster's max dam on proc without making it hugely OP for other tanky multi-class chars is to make innate dam on weapon itself middling and then the proc damage to scale with saves and spellbonus a lot more. Otherwise you'll have this same argument every time.

Ezekiel and I discussed my post before he posted this, and I totally agree with him. The problem with proc weapons is that they don't scale well with the benefits that only mages can get (increased spell damage and saves). This makes them deadly in even a warriors hands even though he may have less of those things. We have a situation where the proc weapons produces more damage for those already doing a lot... I never sort to stop mages from having an increase... I just wanted to point out, that weapon was out of balance for warriors and it was probably the single biggest damage increase given to anyone in the game.

However I don't think it's smart to make the case without showing the figures, which I asked Ezekiel to do. The mages have always been a sneaky lot with there claims of victimization and their tendency to blame their under achievements on warrior privilege instead of hard work, (pajama bastages ) and I'd prefer that they demonstrated the facts, by doing the test that I did, showing there whip damage (counters) and their score stats2 in there saves eq mode, so we can all check our privilege. I also note they don't seem to value weapon damage as they should (Avatar Shop / Tomb Jades). I still think the staff was the single biggest increase for anyone at any point in the game and it was the right decision to change it. I think they have a reason to be disappointed in how it is now ice-ray.

Ezekiel also made the case that heat houses are more frequent than cold... which is true. He also tried to make the case that a warrior is more armored and durable and therefore mages who are more crunchy should have more burst damage. I kind of agree, but pointed out my -21 saves mode with 120sb is -10ac. It seems half the saves and sb eq doesn't spoil your ac, but the other half mages do need... in fact spoils it completely.

In any case... still think a mage needs to post there whip numbers (if they have nothing to hide)... and I think the problem can only be addressed through scaling as suggested. I know that's a difficult solution, but the right one. But... posting the numbers would help with that scaling process.

I think the base damage of spells has always been a bit too high... this is why mages do well in the lower coliseums, but eventually the melee types outstrip them. Mages simply do not get as good of an increase as they should when they approach their elite levels from their spell bonus and saves. Perhaps at lower levels the spell base damage is too high and there is not enough emphasis on the importance of the saves and sb stats.

[norks]

The staff is slightly better offensively than the whip in my hands. I get about 20 more damage on the proc from ice over fire and the dice are better. But it doesn't have the +dam or the +hit that the whip does. The passive attributes are nice but don't add to the weapon's offensive prowess. I much preferred it with a firewind proc. Why wouldn't I? Maybe we could have an 8x40, caster-restricted version with the same stats and proc rate but with a firewind proc? True it would be a big bump to our offensive capabilities but I don't think there's anything wrong with that.