So crazy it just might work...

[Gorka]

I started work on a "Dressing Room" program tonight... a program that given your levels and requirements works out the best eq set that you can have. I only spent 1.5 hours on it, and it would need many, many more hours to work properly. It would also require help from immortals to sort out issues with the eqlist, it currently doesn't filter temp/quest/retired items. There are other issues with it... But the reason I did this was to illustrate that using a program like this... eq imbalances can actually be found programmatically and mathematically.

Here is some output from my program comparing Gorka's classo at all level 15's and all level 35's for hand dam/weapon dam items. The beauty of this program, is it will calculate the best eqset for anything you specify in a couple of seconds... (Note if there is a slot that doesn't have WEAPON_DAM or HAND_DAM it just uses the first item it can wear in the list.) Remember the results are for illustration only, this is a test!

RESTRICTIONS_WARRIOR 15
RESTRICTIONS_MONK 15
RESTRICTIONS_CLERIC 15
RESTRICTIONS_MAGE 15
RESTRICTIONS_DRUID 15
RESTRICTIONS_NECROMANCER 15
RESTRICTIONS_BARD 15
RESTRICTIONS_THIEF 15
RESTRICTIONS_AVATAR 0

TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC silk smoking vest 98007 0
TAKE HEAD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC pair brown leather riding gloves 3031 1
TAKE ARMS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sleeves precision 98013 0
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC buckler spiked 81107 0
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC robe satin 98004 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC soft white sash 4209 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC polished stone bracelet 8300 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC polished stone bracelet 8300 0
TAKE WIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC scroll recall ornate minor 49306 0

Total : 1

TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC carnelian cameo ring 34272 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC breastplate hammered 39939 1
TAKE HEAD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC handwraps kun tua 39952 1
TAKE ARMS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sleeves banded leather 13224 2
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC ap shield ram head 72500 1
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC robe satin 98004 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC soft white sash 4209 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC scroll recall ornate minor 49306 0

Total : 7

RESTRICTIONS_WARRIOR 35
RESTRICTIONS_MONK 35
RESTRICTIONS_CLERIC 35
RESTRICTIONS_MAGE 35
RESTRICTIONS_DRUID 35
RESTRICTIONS_NECROMANCER 35
RESTRICTIONS_BARD 35
RESTRICTIONS_THIEF 35
RESTRICTIONS_AVATAR 0

TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC tunic battle spiked 24015 2
TAKE HEAD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC gloves lycan claw 132715 2
TAKE ARMS,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC wraps banded leather arm 43097 2
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC shield fist beast beasts lord 40152 1
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC robe vines covered 13225 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sash ebony 43095 2
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WRIST,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC azure armguard power 19350 1
TAKE WIELD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_HAND_DAMAGE|DESC aura pride elite high legacy_equipment 51351 2

Total : 13

TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE FINGER,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC wax molded band bees ring 18053 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE NECK,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC collar spiked 130095 0
TAKE BODY,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC shirt runed 98001 0
TAKE HEAD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC crown pewter 4206 0
TAKE LEGS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC leggings white cloth pair 28275 0
TAKE FEET,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC shoes furry 81116 0
TAKE HANDS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC grv gauntlets cleansed soul 72307 1
TAKE ARMS,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC wraps banded leather arm 43097 0
TAKE SHIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC buckler spiked 81107 0
TAKE ABOUT,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC robe vines covered 13225 0
TAKE WAIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sash embroidered thal thalassian argo 73214 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC cuffs silken 43098 0
TAKE WRIST,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC cuffs silken 43098 0
TAKE WIELD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC sword condottieri 28277 0
TAKE HOLD,AFF_WEAPON_DAMAGE|DESC parchments bound wind blown spellbook xurhix xuie 8291 0

Total : 1

So what the program did, was in a few seconds calculate the max value I can wear for HAND_DAM and WEAPON_DAM given artificial levels I supplied it...

Obviously the outcome identifies the issue with weapon damage... I could make the program identify and report on every issue for every stat, without relying on people's knowledge of the game, or player biases... so the people responsible for fixing eq could be properly informed.

This is how you start to fix the eq list! With proper analysis! Even the smartest player won't find half the things that a program like this could tell you programmatically. This is completely unbiased and evidence based, unlike some of the crap in this thread...

[Teron]

@dr, wonna cooperate on eq? two heads are better, than one, and I (or Stun) probably have played warrior more, than you .)

@gorka, great work.

Just what I was saying about hd eq. Though I guess the same can be said about warrior ac eq: after 1x40 you pretty much need a few forges or items that require 40s (sabatons are 3x40).

Can you run the same about spell dam/heal bonus, please?

Is there a way to use it via the web? Or it's a desktop script?

Thanks.

[Teron]

Re: skill balance

Maybe it'd help to run fight simulations to bring skills/spells to balance, and then bring these calculations to the 9x40 shop prices.

So I kind of agree that it'd help to define this first, and then come up with eq stats that'd complement the balance.

[Ker]

That is the problem with working out EQ gear, too many heads makes the situation bad. They'd need someone experienced who can clean the mess the crap is in now, with a clear goal in mind.

I dressed Stun up since young, I don't need to play a warrior to know what it's missing "EQ" wise.

But we could work together yes!

Fixing the current EQ DB out is a piece of cake. Stop over-thinking. No cap changes, no "boundary" changes. This is the time I would personally say : I will not explain in technical terms why we need these changes. Know for a fact that, they need a change, a positive change. If I were to start explaining, no work will get done. If I had to explain to every head why these changes need change, no work will get done. I "study" EQ for all classes and analyse how EQ affects a player's play for as long as I have played now. How long? Too long.

It's just like playing chess. I can't explain why it's a good move, I know it's a good move.

K <3

[*juggleblood*]

Fixing the current EQ DB out is a piece of cake. Stop over-thinking. No cap changes, no "boundary" changes. This is the time I would personally say : I will not explain in technical terms why we need these changes. Know for a fact that, they need a change, a positive change.

It's just like playing chess. I can't explain why it's a good move, I know it's a good move.

Err.. It's not even clear which changes you're talking about. What do you want exactly?

[Ker]

65+ posts and we are still unclear? Shaize!

ToodaaLooo Madafakaaaaa (c) Doctor turned Comedian.

Bai.

[*Breeze*]

.. Shaize ..

Shaize. A person with effortless good looks, an amazing body and very lovely personality. she must be a Shaize.

I assume you mean scheisse or scheiße if you prefer.

I think the confusion is with you saying eq db instead of available eq usw...

[*juggleblood*]

65+ posts and we are still unclear? Shaize!

ToodaaLooo Madafakaaaaa (c) Doctor turned Comedian.

Bai.

This head scratcher had me reviewing this entire thread to see if I missed something.

This thread was about opening the avatar store at some earlier point. Everything you wrote seemed to imply that it's a stupid idea. Then at one point you make a bunch of complaints about caps without explicitly saying want you want.

Then this crappy remark. Wtf do you want man. Spell it out, cuz I'm curious.

[Filk]

You definitely go in rounds. Move over

ps: gorka, check this http://slothmudeq.tk/. Maybe it will help you a bit. Though i doubt your BIS thing will work with only single item in result. Its always a problem to get best item, so you often use other variants. And comparing time-to-get / value.
Anyway, that script should consider char basic stats to count best variant.

[Gorka]

Thanks Fluffy, although I'm not sure what BIS is... Google tells me, Bank for International Settlements, and who am I to argue with artificial intelligence...

I am familiar with... http://slothmudeq.tk/ However I would like to point out, it has some problems.

* It doesn't have a mechanism to solve the problem of prime eq.
* It doesn't correctly match the levels you type in with x40 eq.

Also, if you have downloaded Breeze's LUA eqlist and tried to convert it to XML, you see the eqlist has some issues that make doing some things really difficult.

* There should be a specific flag for HOLY EQ
* There should be a specific flag for x40 EQ
* There should be a specific flag for legacy EQ
* There are two ways of specifying AC, one with a positive scale and another with a negative scale.
* I don't see the point of BONUS stats... why not just fix caps and make eq administration easier...

This creates so many headaches... I was trying to filter out holy eq, but the only way I could do that was exclude results that had "holy" in the description, this excluded some regular items... in the end I excluded "GenericGod" in the descriptions. It's problems like this, and there are many, that make my life difficult.

The program is currently written in VB 2008 with a MySQL backend with the eq in XML records. I make heavy use of MySQL/XML functions in determining the complexity of eq restrictions... I guess in theory it could use some XMLPATH query thingy instead, but I'm fairly traditional when it comes to programming languages and don't have much time for new and overly lite ideas. (Yes, I mean you LUA)

I have a whole list of ideas I could implement. For example I could implement a "eq difficulty" scale against items, allowing such queries as... "what's the easiest way for me to improve x." I would also like to open source it, distribute it to players. In a perfect world I'd like builders to use it to see where their item fits in and if it's causing imbalances. At the moment, there are a number of individuals who don't see the merit, and there is no buy in yet from imms. Without this, it will remain my hobby program.

For it to work effectively, I need imms to consider making changes to eq structurally. I'd prefer an XML eqlist format, because XML has stood the test of time, and it's more supported, including by MySQL and SQL Server. I think some some new flags need making, and cap information needs to be public so the program could take that into consideration... another thing I am moving next month... and do I really want to spend more time on this considering the dumb-arses that don't get it. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

Some of my ideas are this...

* Open Source
* Include Cap Information
* Collaborative
* Mob Value Lists
* Support for Runes and Clasps
* Ability to choose items by multiple stats, ie, best ac item that also has hitpoints or mana points etc
* Char stats need to be input for better decision making.

The number one mistake programmers seem to make, it make themselves "gatekeepers" for making changes to software products. Case in point, my co-worker, who make a program for my work that only he can use... and he wonders why he has no time with people asking him to make changes... Eventually these types lose interest or wear themselves out. I'd change how I was doing things if I could be convinced other people would buy in and support it, because I may walk away from sloth tomorrow... or maybe I get hit by a bus, or maybe Zuzu targets gor in a group... There would be a benefit of the eqlist being in MySQL... maybe sloth could stop using datafiles and go database... Perhaps unfeasible...

[*Breeze*]

I have said 1000 times that if someone codes a better eqlist I would host it 0 people took me up on the offer.

5-6 asked for details and never replied.

all data is available via mysql (Maria ) or Lua / raw data files.

I have a sample WordPress module.

I am done making eqlists. 99% of comments i received are complaints.

it works for what I need and frankly I don't have the time or desire to revise it.

if you want to do it, submit your idea to be directly to me at breeze @ slothmud . org

regards, breeze

note : I am more of an ass t g an juggleblood. ymmv

[Gorka]

I understand Breeze, doing anything for this game can be completely thankless... May as well do what you want to do if you are going to do it. I'm interested in the Maria export option, I will contact you after your break maybe. The exports so far enable me to take it as far as I plan to take it at this point.