Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

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Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:01 am

I decided to try and subdue all the positive energy plane mobs today. It was a task rendered nearly impossible by game lag, ruling out my magic missile approach... and massive critical and critical hits.

It's a fairly easy calculation to make... High level avatars can only limit there damage to somewhere between 15-20 damage... they can't go lower. Even if they aegis a mob for a subdue... even at the lowest possible damage an avatars massive critical hit or critical hit will nearly always kill a mob you are trying to subdue - and there is nothing the player can do about it.

Please make massive critical and critical hits a player toggle. It's not within the realms of imagination to think that a fighter can limit the force that he uses when attacking something, nor does it break any game Lore.

Can this please be discussed amongst the lvl 45/46 imms and the code change authorized ASAP.

Until such time, I think me subduing is pretty much a waste of time. It's frustrating to not be able to do something through no fault of your own.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:37 am

I guess it would be possible to nightmare the mob and chuck spiritual hammers at it until it morts... if you want us to do that please put something in the shops with an unlimited supply that does about 5-10 damage... but I think I am being fair and rational in my request. The other option would be the potion of weakness that I have already suggested - but even if a players damage was 5, critical hits and massive hits would nearly as frequently kill the mob you are subduing without walling it first.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Josiah » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:36 am

You can turn off critical hits yourself by using shapeshift. Consider using cephalopod for best results.

You might be able to further limit damage by using a sidhe charm of greater fluidity on the mob.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Insomnia » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:01 pm

While I also have a problem with critical hits from time to time, I'm not sure it really needs to be fixed.
I mean... from what I see, items matter a lot more than mobs, and in most areas they correspond to about 80% of all conquest points. If this ratio is correct, we can expect to get roughly 240M cp from items and 60M cp from mobs, right? Getting items doesn't depend on your ability to subdue, so sooner or later pretty much everyone will get their 240M cp. Which means that the main competition will happen around these final 60M cp – and I think it should *not* be easy. Leave it hard. Accept the fact that it is not for everyone.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:05 pm

I did think about shifting, but it's not practical for big hard hitting mobs. I'll at least give it a go.

My cephalopod is -10ac and but still has +18 dam... My subdue mode with the bastard sword does about the same damage... but I can up the ac far higher, and also wear a bit of spelldam to bring it down quicker and heal myself - so shifting is a valid option but perhaps only for niche smaller mobs.

Berserk also turns off the crit hits, but would add +10 damage... but berserk would still work out better than a critical hit, because as warriors know, having berserk up does less damage than critical hits. (dumb but true)

Fuligin suggested getting chilled to drop str and therefore damage.

I didn't think about Greater Fluid, that's a 12% dam reduct iirc? Or is greater 20%?

All these things help, but when you are faced with subduing the entire mud, I still feel we need a more practical solution. The fluidity thing is practical as I have a Bard, shifting I have some doubts about.

I've nearly finished subduing all of ether, fire, water, earth planes today. The magic missile idea does work the best, but not when the mud lags and the mage timing doesn't work out well.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:06 pm

Insomnia wrote:While I also have a problem with critical hits from time to time, I'm not sure it really needs to be fixed.
I mean... from what I see, items matter a lot more than mobs, and in most areas they correspond to about 80% of all conquest points. If this ratio is correct, we can expect to get roughly 240M cp from items and 60M cp from mobs, right? Getting items doesn't depend on your ability to subdue, so sooner or later pretty much everyone will get their 240M cp. Which means that the main competition will happen around these final 60M cp – and I think it should *not* be easy. Leave it hard. Accept the fact that it is not for everyone.


Insomnia you don't have Massive Critical Hit. From memory it's 3x damage, and it can't be turned off, unless you berserk (which adds damage) or shift. You also don't have Gorka's damage from the shops.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Insomnia » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:02 pm

Yes, I don't have massive critical hit, and I also don't have high damage, armor class, or second wind. And if I get bashed, I die... So I really don't feel that warriors are the ones in a weak position here, sorry. :)

At the same time so far I haven't had any big problems with subduing mobs. Yes, it takes a lot of time and a lot of magic missiles. But I've made about 6-7M with subdues, and I can't say it was super hard. Challenging, yes. But not as frustrating as you say. Of course, recent lags made it worse, but they seem to be fixed now.

I also may be mistaken, but I think you can get 80% of conquest points from 20% of mobs – so you don't really have to subdue the entire MUD, maybe 50% will do it. Feels like it's designed to allow most players to get to level 10 of the Spirit, and also leaves some place for competition on the high end.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:37 pm

We are just not going to agree about critical hits. The lore of the game is that you advance forward, gathering greater rewards... when those rewards are then turned against you to become a disadvantage it's really a big "f*** you for playing" to the player. The immortals have to decide if that's the message they want to give out. Players should also be in control of all skills that are "automatic." Because automatic removes a skill element for players, a main reason to play. Tossing webs for example should also be a toggle amongst any of the other skills which are automatic. There are places I don't want my mob webbed!

Insomnia wrote:I also may be mistaken, but I think you can get 80% of conquest points from 20% of mobs – so you don't really have to subdue the entire MUD, maybe 50% will do it. Feels like it's designed to allow most players to get to level 10 of the Spirit, and also leaves some place for competition on the high end.


I do agree with this. But I also think that subdue's aren't worth the conquest points. When the main rewards are rushed to (item trading), the system won't be worth continuing with. For example I've spent 6 cycles trying to subdue a 20m mob today - got it to 0% every time then failed due to a critical hit or too much damage. That's 3hrs wasted on a mob for 55k conquest points. When someone is near the end, improvements will cost incrementaly more, to the point that it probably won't be worth trying. Although we do expect things to get harder as things progress, when the grind is being effected over something the player has no control over... the system starts to become counter productive rather than productive.

We must also take into account the 12hp that is the difference between a mob corpsing or being incapacitated was designed for Sloth I, some 20 years ago, when BH Sewers was group exp. When you factor in weapon damage players are 3-5x more ppwerful than those days, and even more with the new artifacts. The 12hp to range you need to fall in, has not changed.

So to summarize, my main arguments are...

1) Sloth has changed, but the subdue system hasn't kept up with player power increments.
2) Not being able to toggle "Automatic" skills removes options and skill from players.
3) Making the whole game about advancement, then turning that against the player is a slap in the face.

I have tried shifting, but I didn't find it superior than my subdue mode unshifted for mobs over 5m.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Driven » Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:39 pm

Just so I know where you're at, Gorka, are you using the contagion clasp and the gossa rings?
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:25 am

No, I just traded my chains for conquest points, and I don't have the gos rings (obviously the basalt and teakwood options are far easier to source) currently. If I recall correctly there is only 3 wearable slots with -dam eq, and massive crit hit and crit hit will still easily kill mobs if I wore them. I will get them again though if they become part of a wider, workable solution, but at the moment even if I wore them they won't make a big enough difference.

The frustrating thing is this Driven...

You can't win... the less damage you do, the longer you fight, the more rounds it takes, and therefore the more likely a critical or massive will fire in a round and kill it... It's just not workable, in that the less damage you do, you effectively are also increasing your probability of getting a crit hit when it's near death.

A quick solution would be a potion of weakness, or perhaps a cheap drachma sword item that negates crit hit through MUDL if that's possible. Adding -damage eq probably would only interfer with wearing the elite items we need to stay alive during the subdue process that give us dam reduct, max con, heal bonus, ac etc. I can't afford to wear too much crap when the subdue mob is Iblis for example... I'm going to need my regular gear... just less damage. I accept that the subdue process is designed not to be 100% - but at the moment, it's increasingly unworkable with the damage we buy from rebirth shops and critical hits.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby *teker* » Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:09 pm

How about disabling critical hits with autokill turned off?
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:56 am

That would be fantastic.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Ker » Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:45 am

Hi Teker,

Many of us run autokill off and would like to enjoy our crits.

Can we look at alternatives please? Some of us have zero problems subduing.

Thankssssssss

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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Gorka » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:01 am

Ker wrote:Many of us run autokill off and would like to enjoy our crits.
Some of us have zero problems subduing.


Pretty sure this is just a personal swipe at me and can be ignored. Because it makes no sense. "Some of us enjoy failing while doing the opposite of what we are trying to do." But for what it's worth, just a new setting "autocrit" on/off... would be optimal. That way everyone can play to there game style, whether they enjoy achieving, or failing just to spite and manipulate others.
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Re: Enable Toggling of Crit Hits.

Postby Ker » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:30 am

No Swipe my dear Gorka.

Stun and Mage has a combined 500+SB 90+WD and we subdued DM in less than 4 runs.

Can go ahead with toggling crit for all we care, but don't associate it with autokill. That's all.

Kbye.

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