Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Filk » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:37 pm

I dont think capping stats is good idea.
In that case it will be just a delay. Not even long one.
And then problem comes again.
Instead, expotential formula is some kind of limit by itself.

I think your starting values for each stat arent bad. We could use them
And cost for each level should be L(n) = L(1) * q^(n-1)
Where
- L(n) is value for Nth level of stat
- L(1) starting value of that stat
- q - coefficient of raise
- N - level for which we counting

Its not gonna be exactly the same speed for every stat, but offers some approximate correlation over distance and total exp spent for every stat.

I assume that
1 dam = 2 hand dam = 10 spell bonus = 20hp/ma
50b = 50b = 50b = 50b

So while dam end on 30, hand dam on 60, spellbonus end on 300, hp/ma on 600
All other stats has same values as any of those, so could be count with same coefs.

Examples of every starting value we have (2.5b, 5b, 25b, 37.5, 50b)

Dam(50 bils starting, 1.47 coef).
1 50
2 73.5
3 108
4 158
5 233
6 343
7 504
8 741
9 1090
10 1602 Total sum 4 906
20 75509 Total sum 236 060

Hand dam (25b starting, 1.2 coef)
1 25
2 30
5 51.84
10 128.99
20 798 Sum 4 667
40 30620 Sum 183 596



Spell Bonus (5bils starting, 1.037 coef)
1 5
2 5.18
10 6.93
50 29.66
100 182 Sum 4 977
200 6901 Sum 193 292


Mana/hp/mv (2.5b starting, 1.018 coef)
1 2.5
10 2.94
50 5.99
200 87.05 Sum 4 784
400 3085 Sum 174 354


Hit (37.5 starting, 1.47 coef)
1 37.5
10 1201 Sum 3 679
20 56631 Sum 177 045


Max stats are limited to purchase, so even could be set manually to equals progression above. Or get some coef for it.

With that numbers. Assuming some rebirth avatar doing exp with average 1b/h rates.
He will need 1 432 bils to get 10 extra dam. Thats 1432 hours. If he exping 8h/day, he will need 179 days to get those.
And for 20 dam that will be 14545 hours - 1818 days - 5 years.
And thats only for raising one stat. I doubt anybody will get that much of any stat tbh.
But there is potential to do it anyway.

I understand, that exp rate will raise over time, but not that much, since we still have the cap.
Exp cap probably should be raising as well overtime. For example by 1mil for each 200-300bils spent on that shop. Maybe another multiplier, but that seems good enough.


*****05/06 update
I raised coefs to the average 2 years of intensive play to reach 10/100/200 marks of each stat
Last edited by Filk on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Gorka » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:41 pm

I don't disagree with Fluffy's proposal, because it starts with the same starting points as my own ideas and then just leaves them open ended. The reason I decided against this idea was that I just couldn't see Breeze buying it. 432b xp is roughly the xp required for 9x40 rebirth... which I can get in 2 months. (Not sure I'll play this intense again though) Not sure the imms want to add more than +10dam to my stab. But if they want to... I mean, I'm down with that... :)

I think the issue you have with open caps, is the players themselves. For some players 432b is a limiting cap, and for other players, it's not. So the issue is, perhaps some hardcore players need holding back and therefore we need caps.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Filk » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Nods. After sleeping i also think half of the year non stop playing is too quick for 10 dam. I suggest Breeze gives us brief limit, in which time period he thinks 10 dam should be allowed to be gained (year, 2 years, 5 years etc). And i will recalcalute all coefs accordingly.

From my point of view, 10 dam(or any other equivalent) is rewarding enough for 2 years of very intensive playing. Updated previous post accordingly. Even doubt anybody ever will be able to reach 20 dam mark

And about the question of
i guarantee that if we were to make something like that,
we would have to come up with something for mobs too

Thats not an issue imo. We have plenty of high level areas that literally never being run. Some of them could adjusted to be good 9x40 rebirth players exp area. And/or adding more of such areas. And actually, high power player would just run tougher areas, since they will need more exp
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Gorka » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:37 am

Let me argue against myself for a second... I don't think +10 dam is much for non thieves, I'm not even sure it's much for thieves... We can already test... use a +6 damage potion, a dam fortune and a prime bard to obtain +10dam to try it out... we do this in groups occasionally... are people going to be splorking large mobs? I really doubt it.

If you remove CK and Necrop from the game, it's actually hard to kill mobs over 5m in this game without extending regen. I doubt with +10 dam even that situation would change.

I fear even with the power increases proposed... I will still be running shadow keep for xp, because we still can't break past that 5m barrier easily... an area I've been running since 3x40. Is +10 dam a lot? Part of me says yes, yet part of me says, it won't even take me out of the area's I run into a new 5-10m level. There is another question that comes into play among all this talk, and that is the players are changing but the mobs aren't.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Teron » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:02 pm

1. I partially agree with logic and pricing of Gorka's shop.
Though there needs to be 1 of 5 bonus charisma, not 1 of 25 - I suppose it's an oversight, because bards cap at 29 charisma or so - do you want to nearly double their charisma in 1 rebirth? The throngs of bard primes 9x40 we have is not the question, it's the principle.

2. I'd still prefer being able to accumulate stats as I invest time in exp/gold, ie, buy rebirth shop, rebirth, it's reset, buy 5-25 of everything again, but..

3. What I'd totally accept is accurate pricing of logarithmical pricing Fluffy suggested.
The problem here are the coefficients - the 1600bil for 10th dam is nothing to sneeze at, even for rebirths. At that point the price does seem reasonable.

I'd expect to get more hps per rebirth, for example, not 200, but perhaps 300.

4. Extra damage isn't noticeable in stabs, because stab damage is capped for solo around 600 for non-primes and about 1200 for groups?

If these caps are increased/removed, then it'll let players use their real power.

As rebirthers gain more power, they'll need tougher areas to run, that's a given.

One possible solution is to:
- introduce area instances
- let rebirthers set difficulty to normal (current), difficult, epic, heroic, mythic, each increasing mob hp/dam by about 20%.

It'd instantly create dozens of areas rebirthers can hit for more exp without bothering each other or small groups (look at any graphic MMORPGs at how playing in dungeons is done, it's trivial).

In fact, difficulty setting may not be limited to rebirthers - it'd increase the difficulty range for various areas. But it won't fix broken areas with worthless mobs.

6.
*Breeze* wrote:there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
everything in there was decided on by Splork back
when i redid the shop as a level 43 immortal.
he said that's what he wanted there, so that's
what I added there.


Players see for themselves, whether they need something from the shop or not and voice their concerns.
What you just said about Splork single-handedly deciding for all players, what the shop should or should not have, demonstrates the attitude that is the core of most issues in the game, because it's being tailored to his vision without regard to player's interest and needs - and that leads to the game being less and less interesting to players.

Of course, he probably has a right to say, "I'm building the game to my liking - if people don't appreciate it, let them go to Aardwolf or MMORPGs or real life". But is this the vision other immorts share? Is this what players appreciate?

If that's the case, then immorts should stop focusing on making the game interesting for players by asking what they want, and should make a list of Splork's interests. It'd be much more efficient - after all he hasn't publicly played for years, whereas some players have spent only literal years in the game.

Or, immorts should listen to what players want and work together how to make the game more enjoyable for the players, not for Splork.

Splork said that he lets immorts do their thing, except he is involved in most things and whenever he is, whatever new is added is gimped in the end:
- the spec rack that hasn't solved the problem of dozens of specs vanishing from vault floors during reboot/crash,
- the group gold areas: he said that players have enough gold and it isn't an issue, which disregards how mindnumbingly awful gold grinding is or that players might want to group even for gold. After all, the rest of the game is painstakingly geared towards groups,
- forbidding adding more mobs to old areas, the approach is to add it once and leave it, while the opposite is better: measuring, analyzing and tweaking areas for player enjoyment within reason.

So, what do you say Breeze, do you insist that nothing else gets added to the avatar light, because Splork once said so?
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby *Breeze* » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:19 pm

i wont even bother replying to the most of it since i don't like sarcasm

however, avatar lights (all items) have only a limited # of affects. which i believe is 4.
i assume you meant avatar shop.

i tried being open and working with you (mortals) about a rebirth shop and i ended up
nixing the idea because of all the drama it started.

i will not be a public part in the discussion of the rebirth shop nor the avatar shop.

i wrote it before, and i will write it here again.


If teker wants to work on it, work it out with the active immortals
and they can discuss it with me.


while Splork is the final say,
he rarely (if ever?) overrides me.

- spec rack - so what do you want ? 100 slots ? even after rack went in, it stood empty. i am surprised there is stuff in it now. the idea is to give you enough to get started in getting choppers, not remove chopper popping all together.

- gold - i would be open to doing ?jonathans? idea of ramping up gold for an area based on a quest or a timer or something

- forbidding adding mobs - even if not, who is going to do the work ?

(not mentioned but hey, its my reply)
- prime skills - i honestly dont even care. i would probably say it has to use
(0.5 * skill prime position) of whatever though (mv ma hp)

i don't get how you guys can run a complicated/long quest like enea food quest or genie bottle,
but still want everything as easy as possible.

So, what do you say Breeze, do you insist that nothing else gets added to the avatar light, because Splork once said so?

its comments like that that are the reason i wont work on rebirth/avatar shop and in general piss me off.
all i said is that (paraphrased) the avatar shop is as the main/only creator at the time wanted it.
infer whatever you want from that since you will anyways, but that is the type of comment that would make me 100% nix the idea of expanding on the avatar shop. i hate sarcastic replies.

this whole rebirth fiasco is my fault, and i wish i had never done it in the first place.
however, rebirth would probably have worked out better if we were a 4+1 class mud not 8+1.

rest of message deleted because it was pissing me off just proofreading it
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Gorka » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:27 pm

25 BONUS_CHARISMA was a typo. Was meant to be 5.

Topic was Rebirth shop, I made a very constrained proposal, a proposal not necessarily what I wanted, but what I thought I could get, based on the framework and history of the game... but if we were to take your advice...

* Shop should be uncapped.
* Unlimited Rebirths.
* Doubling/Tripling current extra level of purchased Ma/Hp/Mv
* Caps Increased or Removed.
* Bigger Spec Rack.
* Different Levels of XP.
* 3 times as many mobs.
* And a bit of an attack on the immortals.

Anything else you'd like? :roll: Be lucky to get anything now... Zero tact... So smart, yet so stupid.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Teron » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Breeze wrote:the avatar shop is as the main/only creator at the time wanted it


Breeze wrote:there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.


Gorka, In one thread you lament not being able to kill 7mil mobs efficiently, here you slam the idea of higher caps.

Whatever, I'll refrain from commenting if that's how it needs to work.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Filk » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:24 pm

Breeze, just ignore Taron probably.
We were discussing here exact idea, with even some nunbers already. Doesnt matter atm, who will code it, but we need overall agreement about posibility of it and exact details and numbers(though Teker seemed interested a bit in such improvement)

My coefficients were given in assumption, that tier 1 numbers of each stat(ie 10 dam/20 handdam/100 spelldam etc) should be gained in around of 5000 bils of exp. Thats about two years for each stat if playing alot. So doable to get some starting levels of each stat, but making hard to get alot in any, while still giving such posibility for anybody addicted.

So we need some immortal conclusion about exactly that idea, maybe tunning numbers up or down. And after that, we will seek for anybody to do it. But at least with having exact specification.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby *Splork* » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:52 pm

Taron,

You are so out of touch with what actually happens within the Immortal ranks that in the old days, I would waste my time debating you and pointing out the dozens of inaccuracies in your posts.

Now, I just sit back by my pool, laugh my ass off, and tip my glass to those dealing with your bullshit.

Enjoy,
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Teron » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:18 am

I wonder what means I have for learning how things are done on the immortal side?
Do you discuss with us every major decision that is made and why it was made in that quantity/quality, not the other?

If my perception is that someone is deliberately trying to keep playing this game painful to the point that only a fraction of players can tolerate it to reach 9x40 or to continue playing well past 9x40, and I'm wrong, then perhaps it should be clarified, no?

If discussing players issues is a laughable matter, then you are just the example of what I'm talking here:
- no transparency,
- take it or leave it,
- "I just sit back by my pool, laugh my ass off, and tip my glass to those dealing with your bullshit."
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby *teker* » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:09 pm

My impression is that most of the imms are quite busy with rl and are spending less time in the game (myself included). There haven't been any large group discussions regarding rebirth or the rebirth shop that I've been a part of. I am content to put work into the rebirth shop because it seems that many players have reached the point where they have completed nearly everything in the game and because we're not seeing many new players join in. I fear that without retaining the current player base we would be even worse off and the game would eventually dwindle and die.


A somewhat similar topic for me is the chopper rack and the seeming discontent among players for the rack and how choppers (and perhaps other items) are persisted across reboots. There have been several threads regarding the topic and the basic arguments seem to be "players deserve to keep things popped through reboots/crashes" and "players should have to work to have a group full of super-choppers wielding players after a reboot". I can lay out some issues with "solving" the reboot/crash item but for me the bottom line is that I wouldn't want to persist choppers through reboots unless all items were persisting through reboots, and I don't have the desire to spend my limited game-time on solving that particular problem (and the problems that arise from this "fix").
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby *Breeze* » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:52 pm

as for transparency, teker has made way
more info available than in the past.
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Filk » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:14 am

I am content to put work into the rebirth shop

Cool. So we probably need some other immortals conclusion about offered ideas(mine or Gorka's). Or even just agreement from high ranks.

In short, there are two parts that we want to be approved.
1. Few more spells in current avatar shop. Gorka offered the list and it seems fair and balanced to me
2. Rebirth avatar shop with more stats. Better unlimited(though extremly expensive at high numbers). I offered some exp cost examples
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Re: Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

Postby Filk » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:46 am

Mmm. Up. I still hope to see some other then Teker imms opinions about the proposal.
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