Reimbursement request

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Reimbursement request

Postby Teron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:40 pm

Today we got another reboot scheduled, so I tried to save as many specs as I could on Taron.
Since I was laden, I had to drop my sack to pick them up, and then I decided to get one more blazing titans sword.

Winds of Flame pour from your hands, killing a fire maul titan youth instantly.
A fire maul titan youth is dead! R.I.P.
You gain 1275146 bonus experience!
Total exp for kill is 3608905.
warcry LET'S ROCK!
Your blood freezes as you hear a fire maul titan youth's death cry.
sword : You are too laden down with equipment to pick anything else up.
You report 1313/1342 hp. Change: -184. Need: 29. Spells: aegis.

<1313hp 645ma 188mv> 274564689106 4844339 - -8.8 -8 overcast
+4913052 122826 +0
|
|
dro sack
get all
You drop a golden sack.

<1319hp 648ma 192mv> 274564689106 4844339 - -8.8 -8 overcast
You deftly snatch a golden sack.
corpse : You can't carry that much weight.

<1319hp 648ma 192mv> 274564689106 4844339 - -8.8 -8 overcast
Gorka gossips-- 'last word'

<1323hp 650ma 194mv> 274564689106 4844339 - -8.8 -8 overcast
cast 'word of r'
Ok.
Magnolia
The path curves around a large magnolia tree, almost forty feet high.
It is covered with large white flowers, which emit a strong, sweet scent.
The path is edged with stone blocks, possibly in an attempt to stop it
from slipping down the slope toward the sea.
Exits: East South West
A small yellow potion has carelessly been left here. [2]..It glows violet!
A glossy plucked eye stares at you from the ground.
A small red potion has carelessly been left here...It glows violet!
A pulsing mass of grey matter lies puddled to the side.
A locked spellbook with strange runes lies forgotten on the ground.
A soiled sheet from some notebook flutters in the wind.
A scroll has carelessly been left here...It glows violet!
A large fountain is here gurgling out an endless stream of water.
A large note dispenser, with a button on the top, is here against the wall.
A magical contraption, the shadowgram, floats just above the Magnolia.
A large bulletin board is mounted on a wall here.
Gorka Rat Like Beasts 724 / Scorps Dagger 1 is standing here.
Gorka glows with a bright light!
Gorka has a steady red aura.

<1327hp 617ma 197mv> 274564689106 4844339 - -8.8 -8 overcast
You feel less righteous.

<1329hp 618ma 197mv> 274564689106 4844339 - -8.8 -8 overcast
w
s
w
s
w
sav
Connected to host slothmud.org


After the reboot, I didn't have my sack.
It had a Citrine in it, the fisherman's net, a pendulum, sidhe charms, some potions, about 10 books I wanted to save, some other stuff.

I'd appreciate a reimbursement.

Thank you.
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby *Splork* » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:47 pm

I am not sure if you have been reimbursed or not, however anyone who purposely drops items when they are fully aware that a reboot is coming should not be reimbursed.

Sorry,
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby Teron » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:07 am

I was working on preserving the spellbooks and specs that would disappear on reboot.
I spent about 7 hours to get 13 scimitars, and I wasn't going to lose them not only because I spent 7 hours to get these specs, but because other crashes and reboots poofed dozens of specs I spent dozens of hours getting.

That I went after the last popped sword was a mistake, obviously, but I do need to risk my stuff to save items that are unnecessarily wasted on repeat reboots.

If specs vanish on reboots by design, and you reboot every day by design, then you punish me by design.

If you expect players of modern games, where weekly reboots are predictable and expected, and where items are saved on loot, to accept unpredictable chaos that disrupts their gameplay, then you are wrong.

Sorry.
Last edited by Teron on Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby Gorka » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:20 am

I don't understand why some "principles" are held higher than player harmony. Is not the highest principle of a game for it to be fun? What is it that happens when kids play games and someone gets hurt... I don't want to play anymore is what they say. I was on the receiving end last week with a botched Tomb Jade singing... After playing for 2 years, quitting crossed my mind. My attitude to the game changed and I am still feeling irritable about everything. I just don't understand what the game gains from punishing players for accidental mistakes like this, all to keep the integrity of some principle. I am at fault for my botched singing, Taron is at fault for dropping his sack... no ones arguing that... I just for the life of me don't understand in these situations why principles are held higher than player harmony. You can say that in real life there are consequences for accidents... that's true... but Taron purposefully wouldn't drop his sack while the game booted in real life... nor would I willfully interrupt the singing of something that took me 6 months to collect. They happen because it's a game, they happen because of typo's, triggers and weight issues. I agree it's difficult to know where to draw the line... but the loss of items in particular should be reimbursed and I think in most cases if they are quest they often are, which I do thank you guys for. I just for the life of me can't figure out why there is a principle here that's held higher than keeping players actually happily playing your game. How is the game forwarded by holding the principle higher than the player making whats clearly an accidental error. I'm honestly asking you to help me see your point of view. The other week I lost a "Magical Gateway" when I dropped a "key." How was I to know it had a key word of key in the name when it's called a "Magical Gateway." I am dropping useless crap every few minutes in this game. I can't possibly do a forensic check each time I drop a key.

I may regret commenting in this thread, but some days I just don't get it, I feel I have to speak out, what I feel is the truth from my perspective, because there is a principle in action here that's counter productive. I think if you lose items and can provide a log, you should be reimbursed, especially if the items dropped are of high value. We have good immortals here, currently the best crew that I ever recall, and they should be trusted in there decision making on what is high value inside a certain time frame. I don't know how long the game logs, but surely a players claim can be verified? In this particular case I actually looked at Taron shortly before reboot, some of what he's claiming to have lost was actually in his inv at the time which even I can verify in my own logs.

Maybe Taron's biggest mistake was not losing "everything" through corpsing during the reboot ... that way he would have been fully restored no questions asked... yes there are also some contradictions to this principle it seems... so I just don't understand why this principle is held so lofty when it's also so easily broken or contradicted.
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby *Breeze* » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:19 am

There are 2 types of reimbursement.

Type 1 - load last backup to imm inventory. Most likely too late but could try it.

Type 2 - go into shell, extract 1 pfile set and replace old files.. run clonefinder.. you probably dont want this. Anything duped is lost (ie was on you and you gave away or vaulted)

Type 3 - extract files, move to cport, boot mud, change char pass, see whats on char, manual reimb on game port.

Last time I did this was for gorka it took me about 45 minutes.

I dont have 45 minutes most days and when I do, I try to play

@gorka you were the most generous reimb I have done in awhile. Mainly because teker put in a good word. I even told him to modify cuillen song even though I disagreed with the changes.

If we make changes each time someone complains or threatens to quit then what's the point of running the game.

Will I reimb him? Probably. He just has to wait until I get around to it. However splork is right. Dropping your eq when the mud is about to reboot is one of the dumbest things you can do. Which now I have to waste my time to rectify.
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby Gorka » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:16 am

All good Breeze, I may not always like your decisions, but I believe you to be a fair and good person, and I will live by them. When I first saw this thread, I knew Taron likely wasn't going to be reimbursed, and I begged myself to stay out of it... obviously failed... never learnt that skill to 100%...

I understand the time it took to restore my inv when the game crashed when I opened the Christmas present and saved, and it was much appreciated. It takes a fair bit to restore all the items in containers... and as you can imagine loosing your keychain then is no joke.

Considering that most of these issues are a direct result of the drop and junk commands... would not logging player drops and junks in a 7 day revolving log file with a timestamp... assist immortals in quicker restores in these cases where they choose to restore. I don't think it's acceptable you have to do as much work as you do to restore either... and I don't like to put you in that circumstance, but on the other hand I don't think it's fair players loose hours of there work due to accidental stupidity. It's why I mentioned about my magical gateway... I don't expect to be reimbursed for that, because in the context of Gorka, it's not high value. However Is there some way to improve this situation where drops and junks can be logged and that lesser gods could also share the burden of being able to restore from this list if the item is deemed high value. I'm just asking, is there a more practical solution for players and immortals?

You guys as immortals have a totally valid position, we respect that... on the other hand I think players in some cases do to... most of the time you guys are great... but can something be done to improve it even more in a practical sense? When I stuffed up my tomb jade singing, I talked to players... in some cases players had done the same thing and some had been reimbursed and others not. Is there a way we can come together on this issue a bit more practically?
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby *Breeze* » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:52 am

Omw to a meeting but junk is already logged with extra info.just not the items inside a junked container.
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby Ker » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 am

Hi,

That's funny. At the very first read, I was also fairly certain a reimbursement will not take place same as Gorka's.

There is a difference between justifying and demanding a reimbursement VS admitting to a mistake and asking if a reimbursement is possible. The latter works most of the time with sound reasoning in experience.

Not sure why "player harmony" is brought up here - clearly player error.

But I also understand Taron's frustration clearly indicated with his post. I apologize on behalf of this frustrated player <3

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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby *Splork* » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:40 am

Just for the record...

We normally do side with player harmony these days, which is why reimbursements of one sort or another happen on a weekly basis. It is also why I said to absolutely refund Gorka when Teker asked. Taron has been on the end of these reimbursements many times as well.

Sooner or later, someone is going to be told no. Especially when the request is for something as ridiculous as this. When that does happen, at least we know what is going to happen on the crier :mrgreen:
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby Gorka » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:05 am

Just for the record, I haven't been fully reimbursed. I have been partially reimbursed. What did you agree to Splork?

Naturally I would prefer full reimbursement if that's what you guys agreed to... but if not, I am happy to live with the partial reimbursement. I am appreciative of the understanding I've received so far and the change Teker made to close this little "gotcha" in the game. I doubt when the sidhe was designed the principle that it could take your gems and leave you with nothing was "purposefully" implement... of course I don't know that... just my suspicion. If my triggers had cast a spell at any other time during the process, my gems still would have been on the ground, it's just those few seconds when he weaves his magik.
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby Teron » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:19 pm

I'd like to clarify a few things.

As you see in the log, I did pick up the sack before the reboot. What didn't happen is the "save" command go through. This is the only reason I asked for a reimbursement: I've dropped more precious to me stuff by error, wasn't reimbursed, and learned to live with(out) it.

If imms say "no", that's fine.

If Splork thinks that not saving items on picking them up is a feature he needs to defend, compared to an improvement that'd save items on picking them up/looting/dropping, that's is also fine: I can accept that position.

But it doesn't mean I have to like it, which is my argument is about. I am saying, just as he did, that his decision will have undesirable consequences.

For some reason, corpses now persist through crashes, even though there is a 5min warning and a restore before reboot. Just the last reboot it saved Nom's corpse. If this change was made to save player and immort time from reimbursements, then why not go in the same direction and save items on pick up/loot? It's been done elsewhere, it's doable and it works.

Imagine, if imms didn't make the game save corpses on crashes? Now imagine, if there are less instances, where reimbursement is required.

Even the recent change of % chance of saving loaded item through crash is in the same direction of saving players' efforts from cycling eq, even though it'd have been logical to actually save the eq on mobs players had already popped, but didn't collect.

I am one of the few players, who actively cycle choppers and who endured through uncountable crashes/reboots and lost tons of choppers, and hours of my life from popping them. Every such hit is a chink in my patience - I assume in others' too.

I was not alone in losing popped eq on crashes, I am not alone in losing specs on crashes.

Players can account for "features" that break their gameplay, but why not make the game run smoother for them?

Breeze, I now understand that reimbursement requires tons of time rather than 5 minutes. But I also wouldn't have asked, if i didn't know that popping the lost stuff would take me 20-40 hours, not minutes. But, if you need to rest on the weekend and to recover after work on weekdays, do that - it's more important than a game (no sarcasm).

Cheers,
T

P.S.
Ezekiel gossips-- 'in any case, i am glad they let us keep em through reboot, it allows me to stay logged or have clanmates scoop em if needed before reboot'

Sochi gossips-- 'feels like they dont know whether they want to fix chop or nerf it'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'but when you set up a whole day of chopping, and it crashes...it would take half od day to just get choppers back to set it up'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'so then you get frustrated and rent'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'counter-intuitive'

Sochi gossips-- 'yeah, its a group killer'

Sochi gossips-- 'chop is such a big part of the game now for good or bad'

Sochi gossips-- 'we have to accept cycling choppers and saving them for a group is the normal paradigm'

Sochi gossips-- 'can't just let them poof and say tough luck'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'nods, i usually keep them on me, but you cannot predict when the crashes are coming, so if i happen to be off cont...poof'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'shrug...it just sucks when a half day of cycling these choppers so i wouldn't have to cycle any today during a set 24 hour eu period'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'and a random crash screws the day'

Ezekiel gossips-- 'anyway, spose it frees me up for other things today, long afk'
Last edited by Teron on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby *Breeze* » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:46 pm

there is an autosave feature. it should happen on get stuff, not just drop stuff.
will have to check. howerver,
its more the "scheduled reboot" feature that is the issue.

sloth reboot is an external script which kills the mud process.
another script restarts the mud (well it see's that the mud is down and restarts it)
it also rotates logfiles etc

one of the first things i did was clean up the way the mud reboots (manual)
so that we could do "shutdown reboot" and it would reboot almost immediately.
before it would dump a core file each and every manual reboot and would take
3-4 mins to reboot.

ideally sloth should just check what time it is and save players
then exit gracefully, rather than an external script doing it

the reason you lost your stuff is because the mud simply hadn't gotten around to
processing you before it was killed.

i will discuss with teker a way to make the mud reboot more gracefully, but no promises
on a timeline.

feel free to have teker or idjit reimburse you (i think they should be able to)

@idjit/@teker - dont forget to "wrapsheet" it, by vnum please.
eg: "wrap taron reimb 13231-sword of monkeys, 2231-hair of dog, etc"
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Re: Reimbursement request

Postby *Splork* » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:49 pm

I have been quite clear in my responses and have not once defended any "feature". I think we have been doing quite well cleaning up these "features" and we will continue to do so by adding additional player saves throughout the code.

As for choppers, yes it can be frustrating, especially when the game is not stable. But I will save everyone the headache of of a 50 post thread, by letting everyone know that choppers will never persist 100% through crashes or reboots. We may discuss some other possibilities but popping choppers will always be part of the game to start chop groups.

Sorry,
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