Newbies are not affected by nocap

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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:54 pm

Wrong, it's not doable for everyone else if you got yours by a benefactory nature of eq groups and the like, but you're not willing to extend the same...all is not equal in that equation.I like how you just glossed over those details and stuck to generalities. That's the sign of a weakly backed argument. What if those other veteran alt mid-levs had left you in the dust for mid-lev grouping and eq, and were able to just have their friends drag them around Lyme while you stagntated in many more ways because of it?

Funny, you would have raved about the great 'community' when you needed the eq... or people to run with that were your level that were a bit more experienced to show you the ropes. Now you call it 'socialism' and want capitalism because it benefits you and you don't want to waste your time running alongside the lowbies. Hypocrite.

Not asking a whole lot here...just asking for you to extend the same kindnesses that were extended to you..you're trying to spin it to make it sound like charity. Jeez, come off your pedestal.

Your type of attitude will be the death of this mud. Looks like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Yasik » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:14 pm

No you're wrong, I scavenged most of my eq from stores and from auctions, because somebody somewhere pops something they dont need, someday; they then put it on auction and I buy. Everybody can do that, it a nobrainer.
We cannot just give free eq and levels to players, because players will not see any value in it, because they did not put any effort to gain it. And as I said, many good mid-level eq can be just picked up from the ground, just need to bend and take.
I am willing and able to join eq-groups or even 2man if somebody asks, but I will not roam the mud seeking players who needs something then pop it for them, its impossible since everybody always need something. But I am always there to join, often even if I dont need anything personally, and it happened many times - you just wasnt the one to vitness it.
Regarding me killing this game, its just too emotional and cant withstand even a little bit of logic.

PS. I personally consider "mid-game" starts from 4x40. Below that is lowbies and really nothing to do just to gain muscle.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:18 pm

All of our actions make or break the mud as a whole...we make it what it is..so yeah..it is completely logical to assail those that are gaming the system to make new playerbase feel isolated for their own benefit.

Yeah, let me just grab mid-lev eq...riiight...there are NO people cycling eq mobs..all xp. All the shop eq is from xp runs or gold runs. More than ever, with a depeleted regular playerbase, they do need a hand to stick around, they may need our help hitting equipment...because, where we had a lot more in shops and actual eq groups and economy...they have none.

This standard of 'just grabbing mid-lev eq' you speak of...that's a pipe dream that used to exist. I can't believe you're really this disconnected from what's actually going on...or maybe that shouldn't surprise me, as you're clearly of the aforementioned mentality, "I've got mine- get yours or quit/die and get out of my way" when the circumstances are wholly different. That is what is making your argument hypocritical.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Yasik » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:38 pm

You arent serious, are you? Tell what this thread is about, without scrolling to 1st page.
Not going to argue, see me ingame if you need me.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:09 am

This is about same topic that I've been mentioning whole time...since my first extended post to Taron here...

Do you need help reading?...from nearly my first post:

"No, I'm saying any newb limits should remain because it's bad enough:

You have all lev 20 valkers then all 4x40-9x40 avatars...why?
- Because people run their veteran friends' newb-level alts all over lyme and get them on par.
- This limits grouping through mid levs, a time when true newbs actually need the support of those chars to...ya know...actually learn the structure of sloth groups within eq/xp, learn the ropes, mutually gain through the mud...rather than be left in the cold by those being isolationist and elitist on lyme with their small cadre of old-timers dragging them around.

This leads to new players quitting at mid levs."


Have stayed on that topic since. Nice evasion tactics though.

But then again, I guess 'it's legal' sums it all up from your end.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Yasik » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:24 am

I think this thread was made to just your steam out, and not to resolve a problem you describing, if it exists at all. I'm not sure why I continue to
Leadership bonus is high enough, at exp bonus day, if leader is tank at the same time, with good group, can be ridiculously big.
Only way to make people lead - is to make them *want* to lead.
Everybody wants to maximize their character's power, by levels and eq.
If you say that existing leadership exp bonus is not enough, and increasing it even further is not considered as an option by imms, then possible solution is to introduce another "points" system along with exp, honor, and drachma, and make special store where leaders can buy special eq in exchange for their hard earned leadership points. Something tells me I know what will be imms' answer to this idea.
The game as it is today - is much easier than it was before. Making it even more easier, when less efforts give more reward, is bad idea, because it removes challenge.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:35 am

Much easier for who? I assure you the new playerbase mid-levs that just want to group and learn xp/eq/mud tactics from those close in lev to themselves... they leave in droves while vets are sponging with their newb/mid-lev alts on Lyme...thoe that leave wouldn't say that the game is 'easier' for them....

Again..look at the who list..proof is in the pudding...


[ pri sec ter qua qui hex sep oct ] Players
-----------------------------------
[ *Overlord* Wa:9.40 ] Linx ...
[ *Overlord* Wa:9.40 ] Josiah
[ *Champion* Wa:8.28 ] Taron join chat: http://telegram.me/slothmud
[ *Theurgist* Ma:7.39 ] Ezekiel ~Dragonsworn~
[ *Enchanter* Ma:7.32 ] Elendai is searching for chunk of titanium
[ *Hierophant* Cl:5.32 ] Prescience ... thanks Josiah!
[ *Pilgrim* Mo:4.29 ] Sledgehammer [Legends] Needs Santity, Mstrike, GLloyds
[ *Scoundrel* Th:4.28 ] Risky ~Dragonsworn~ wtb Sardonyx
[ 34t 26c 21w 11m|10b 8d 6n 5o ] Sadnama
[ 20o 20b 20w 20c|20t 20m 17n 20d ] Itami Hai Karate
[ 20w 20o 20m 20n|20c 20d 20b 19t ] Yasik http://tinyurl.com/hqcyypr
[ 20c 20m 20n 10b| 6w 5d 4o 3t ] Whatta \ /
[ 20n 20c 11m 2d| 3w 0 0 0 ] Zorn is hunting on BH
[ 20d 17c 0 0 | 0 0 0 0 ] Fandral the Fiery Feral Ferret
[ 14d 12t 10m 8w| 6b 4o 2c 1n ] Unmace is slowly growing in afk.
[ 13d 4c 3t 0 | 0 0 0 0 ] Zabibu the Untitled
There are 16 visible players.
Highest total since last bootup: 24.

Usually 0 or maybe 1 character between the lev of 20 - 3x40 or 4x40
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Yasik » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:50 am

Easier for everyone.
If you want to help them - why dont YOU lead exp?
What you consider "mid level"?
I as Ozzy was pretty much able to level up soloing at rate I consider acceptable. Groups just speed that up.
If you say that I am guilty for not leading/teaching others, then this is becoming utter bullshit. I owe noone anything that you mention, and I have my own goals.
2x40 is character that maximized their killing potential to like 75%.
Players must have their own internal motivations. If you want to walk them by hand to 9x40 - go on, do so, but dont tell me to do it for you because you think its right thing to do.
Not being lazy is enough. Using every legal opportunity is ok.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:17 am

1. I help people not only as newbs, but also through mid-levs, while I help them more as newbs I show them areas to hit, I show them how to use website, familiarize them with commands and tactics...if they ask for help at mid-levs I try to make them hit mob first solo...even die to it often, before I go two man it...often times I will group with them after to help 2 man up some eq, as it takes real vulnerability and a willingness to learn to take that leap and challenge yourself. Just ask the few mid-levs around or the 20's for sure.

2. I'm not saying you have to lead xp...I AM saying it's selfish and counter-intuitive to get dragged all around Lyme on a newb/mid-lev while watching the actual new playerbase have less and less people to actually help them develop into experienced players b/c all the chars their lev are on Lyme. It's pretty simple actually. You just keep restating it in ways to deflect from taking responsibility, but no such chance.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Teron » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:18 am

1. Eze, I need eq on mobs that are hard or impossible for me to solo, but I don't hit them, because it's hard to get an eq group going, so I focus on the smaller stuff that I can solo.

And yes, I can solo mobs that are 5-20mil sized easily (which is far smaller, than 9x40 can solo easily, actually). I don't see a problem with not leading a group for *small mobs*. I mean, do I have to lead a group to kill a 20mil mob?

You can't reasonably expect ppl to join groups, when they don't need eq. I mean, it can happen once in a while, but not most of the time.

9x40 avatars have their own motivation and you can't blame them for not needing the eq they already have. It's simple logic. Like we agreed on, avatars need new complex forges to be interested to run/join eq groups.

2. I guess we shouldn't hit eq mobs in exp groups, so people would actually run eq groups or suffer and quit.

Thoughts?

3. I referred to you mentioning nerfing Lyme exp, which would bring avatars offlyme. Otherwise, you are correct: if you only limit lyme to 1x40, then avatars will stay on Lyme and/or mort their friends to 1x40.

However, there's only one avatar that's leading his buddies around. I may be the next one, who knows. But this practice isn't wide-spread as you make it out to be. Though, in our scale, that Lyme group is sometimes 30% of the mud online population.

So it seems like you picked the wrong target here, rather, a point where the problem shines, but it's not the problem.

The problem you describe is a symptom of low population and little endgame for 9x40s:
- few groups
- fewer eq groups
- low amount of rare eq on the auction - also because there are few buyers
- no experienced players leading low level groups, because there's no one to follow or lead.

Perhaps, in addition to creating 9x40 forges, there needs to be a wider program for 9x40's alts, so they could play and group offlyme. But again, this looks like a patch towards a bigger problem: low mud population.

And it's low not because MUDs are being replaced by MMORPGs: Aardwolf has 200+ online, there's at least some demand for text-based games
Image

Again, I've come to the same conclusions as I or we did earlier:
- we need more 5-9x40 high end eq and forges. And eq has to be useful. Check out the black demon-skin bracer, -0.5 -dam reduction +max str *arms* on a 300mil mob. Who would use them? I was tempted to get it only because I thought it was a *wrist*wear for some reason.

- we need to treat the MUD as a product and:
+ actively promote it, not hope that "they will come"
+ work on keeping current players by adding useful high-end eq, game mechanics, areas and maybe more
+ maybe encourage 9x40s play their remorts or alts
+ making things easier: finished quest info (being worked on), identify in auctions, gem trading section
+ actively ask for feedback on what the players need, prioritize them, based on demand/resources needed, and do what the players really need

The latter can be done in a form of an open-ended, rated list of suggestions. If we were able to rate threads in the suggestion subforum, imms would've been able to see, what players really need, based on feedback, not just internal analytics and guessing.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:27 am

Taron,

+1 for your last response, well thought out.

Only thing I disagree with...

2. I guess we shouldn't hit eq mobs in exp groups, so people would actually run eq groups or suffer and quit.

Thoughts?


I wasn't saying you should or shouldn't...as a leader that's your right..as a follower, that's up to the leader to bend to the will of the chars if they want to meander to hit an eq mob (which usually is at the cost of the group xp per hour slightly...and sometimes not so slightly). I was just stating that tanks and healers usually get that break more. Then, when new chars see it happen for a tank or cleric and don't understand the leeway given and ask for a mob and the leader says 'this is xp, it's not on the run'....they can feel pretty dejected or pretty worthless to the group at the very least. So it's not only you who's in the catch 22...

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post.

Note: Still personally think it's selfish to run on Lyme with a 20 lev...it just is..there's no beating around the bush there. End game, no end game, challenge..don't care...it's non-productive to have level 20's speed leving on Lyme. There is no rhyme or reason for allowing it to be legal.

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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Teron » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:52 am

Eze, I do remember following the great people to the MH.

It was fun, contributing to a kill of a swordwraith, get good exp. Only for the leader to pass eq to the tank, his buddies or higher levels. You could feel like you were no one and you had to grow to get a chance to get eq.

And yes, it was frustrating and I can't say it was that unfair: people do act better towards people they know and the items used to go to people that could use them. And yet, we have it better with the wheel these days.

Also, what you described as "not on the run, it's exp", is precisely what happened in my groups and because at least one person is annoyed at this and now does the same remarks, when I consider hitting eq for others.

Maybe people shouldn't expect to get eq from exp groups? But it can only be done, if leaders don't hit eq, while on an exp run.

Or we need to hit all eq calls in an exp group. Or make people refine their choices.

(Wow, did we get offtopic in this thread)

As for avatars leading newbies on Lyme..it's kind of an easy way for them to group. How else would they group? What if the tard doesn't have a remort and isn't interested in playing his alts?

If you ban noobs from Lyme, then, if tard prefers his buddy to exp/hr, then he'll take him to other conts doing the very same thing. Why and how stopping this will fix the game? Why would the smaller buddy prefer a group with new players to following his friend?

I just don't see an easy solution to this one, other than encouraging tards to play their remorts, maybe by significantly upping exp or gem pop rate for chars that match the area level (eg, 1-3x40 in Ogres).

P.S. For the record, limiting levels of people, who can group together, is severely limiting towards the amount of groups. I saw this in Aardwolf, when there are several people of different levels, who are seeking for a group, and they can't, because they only group within 3 levels (at the scale of 40 max levels) of each other.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:10 pm

"As for avatars leading newbies on Lyme..it's kind of an easy way for them to group. How else would they group? What if the tard doesn't have a remort and isn't interested in playing his alts?

If you ban noobs from Lyme, then, if tard prefers his buddy to exp/hr, then he'll take him to other conts doing the very same thing. Why and how stopping this will fix the game? Why would the smaller buddy prefer a group with new players to following his friend?
"

That was a very weakly attempted justification for something that should very clearly be reversed. I don't even really think you believe it, but rather know you'll be running your newb soon.

Pleeassse...first part...there were 3x40 restrictions before..if an avatar wants to group on Lyme..he can 2-3 man with other 3x40 to 9x40 or run it solo (if you can't run it solo, learn...Lyme was supposed to be an elitely run continent in it's build and if you can't learn to run at least chunks of it solo, you probably don't belong there)...most of them are fine soloing the quick stab/grip/blast areas anyway. Hell, that's what Surf was doing before he started dragging people. It's also pretty easy to find another high lev char willing to cycle with you for some on the quickest xp/hr on mud, so let's not pretend it's not been this way. Also, the lev 20's aren't contributing shit anyway against Lyme mobs with their lightning bolts...so don't act like it's necessary....it's simply scamming xp to newbs.

You're distinctly wrong about the second part. As I said before, product of making Lyme 3x40 again: the 9x40 chars that are dragging their friends would not sacrifice their xp/hr from Lyme to go help their friends sponge for much less personal yield on SS/AH...they would tell the newbs to just go level somewhere else and the 9x40 would stay cycling for their hell-bent 10th damage point on Lyme (just like it used to be). The only reason these 9x40 are dragging their newb friends is because they're already running the areas anyway (they are not running it 'with the intent to help newbs' as you are correlating) and they're exploiting the fact that we allowed newbies on to Lyme to chop way back in the day so as not to isolate them. It's now having the opposite effect. Even if 9x40's did decide to run their newb friends around SS/AH, they'd have to then do it at a cost to their xp/hour...which it should be.

These veteran lowbie/mid-lev chars that run alts then would have to be off lyme for their xp...this encourages more small groups to form off lyme for other non-veteran players having newbie/lowbie/mid-levs to join. Even if it was only an incremental rise in groups, it can't be worse than the current system of 'have' and 'have-not's, with the new playerbase just feeling left isolated.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Teron » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:42 pm

1. When I said "they group", I meant the tard and his buddies. Not avatars. I know avatars can solo the entire Lyme, if they want to. Why would anyone think otherwise?

2. My opinion is that 3x20s contribute on Lyme proportionally to their levels. They have 300ma of cure serious, which is more, than a peri. Also, they can use a velvet wand, a lamb or call for help (or get their main). I've saved Surf about x2-3 of exp, of what he got my bard, this way.

The only exception is 8x20 chars, who have twice more levels with the same power. And 8x20 are exceptions, not the rule.

Which brings another point:

3. You only analyze one avatar, who drags his buddies, and it's Surf. Therefore, you apply your assumptions about him to other players. Yet, you apply the restrictions you want to apply to Surfnazi to other players, including me.

You are right that I might lead a newbie around lyme, either a friend or follow someone else in a remort. But first, I'd check, if we can do better exp 2man on other conts with my alts, just because my alts don't have 350 levels on them. And I'd prefer to group with my buddy on/offlyme, rather than get an extra mil/hr. I think Dr would've done the same. Which, I guess, only works for you, because you'd get twice more players grouping offlyme.

But guess what. If you want me or my buddy leave Lyme, I'll come with him and I won't invite others in. I'd rather get more exp for my buddy, so he could get to Lyme, rather than take on more ppl. You can object this as much as you want, but I bet you love tight 2-3 man groups more, than huge 10+ groups, when it comes to grouping with your friends.

However, he doesn't have time for groups now, so this is a not issue for me. Dr and Tembikai don't play any more. Back to point 3.

4. I don't like that you say who I should group with. It's my decision and just forcing my hand in this sucks.

Imposing any limits instead of providing a constructive critique and improvement doesn't lead to anything.

I'll allow myself to quote Abraham Lincoln, I mean, Neptune from an email:
Neptune wrote:The important thing here is to not allow ourselves
to be victim to supposition and misinformation. We are always looking
for ways to encourage player growth, and welcome ideas. But as history
has shown, we cannot, more often than not, promote addition by subtraction.


You suppose too much and want to apply a general rule in a unique case. It shouldn't be done this way.

Though I agree that we need more mid-level groups and I've already suggested my ways to fix this.

5. When you say that tards hit Lyme regardless and will not move elsewhere, it is just a guess or a more precise estimate of what would Surf would do. How do you know others will do the same, when there's no one else leading newbies on Lyme? Again, go to 3.

Also, even if you push experienced players in alts offLyme, you assume they'd lead or join groups. What makes you think so? Up until 1x40 or so, solo exp is great. 1x40-3x40 exp is great in 2-3man and I'm not sure I'd let just about anyone to follow me on my exp runs. As for large groups, they exist regardless of Lyme, unless chop exp exceeds offlyme exp with bonuses.

6. You said:
Ezekiel wrote:the fact that we allowed newbies on to Lyme to chop way back in the day so as not to isolate them. It's now having the opposite effect. Even if 9x40's did decide to run their newb friends around SS/AH, they'd have to then do it at a cost to their xp/hour...which it should be.


But they do run on lyme, so it did allow people to group on Lyme regardless of character level. It works, just not how you like it. But it works.

In fact, unknown newbies can't join Lyme exp groups is because there are no chop groups, since chop was nerfed. Not because *one avatar* wants to let others tag buddies around.

Also, there are no Lyme groups, since most exp is solo, and DoT and Mystica require a good number of avatars and a dashing leader. Sadly, I don't know DoT well enough and Mystica needs even more avatars to survive ambushing mobs that hit -700hps/round.

Again, there are issues, but mostly because:
- we need to bring chop back and make it as good as exp off-Lyme w/o exp bonuses.
- an incentive, not just remorts, for tards to play their alts
- we need complex 5x40+ forges
- we need more players
- we need high-end content for 9x40 avatars (I heard the Spire was made for them, but I don't see them rushing into it. Why?), so they'd stick to Lyme and keep grouping/playing

I sorted the above by how easy it is to do them.
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Re: Newbies are not affected by nocap

Postby Ezekiel » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:42 pm

Since we are just getting repetitive with this thread...I'll restate my points of disagreement, then done with this:

1. High lev avatars aren't gonna move off Lyme to drag your newb for xp if they lev restrict it...you act like 'I don't know what avatars would do'....yes, i do, it's called pattern and history. There is such a thing to base predictions and actions upon. That's kind of how the world works and even how new changes are made on this mud (which is why this thread is going). They are only dragging peeps there now because, as I've said many times, they're already running the areas.

2. To think that this is a vendetta against Surf is laughable. It is not only directed at him, it's directed at any char that is exploiting this. I didn't like when Dr did it, and it doesn't matter who does it...it's just wrong on principle to say that a x20 is running in such high level areas for the amount they're contributing, while neglecting other characters their own level off lyme. I bring it up now because it happens quite often with Surf...much moreso than I've ever seen one char run newbs on Lyme. This makes a system of elitism where true new lowbies and mid-levs have no one their level that is experienced to group with, so disinterest sets in.


3. Cure serious? Really? Give me a break. That's just a poor justification for wanting to continually run your newb there. The amount of xp gained to what you're actually providing as a x20 on Lyme...not even close.

4. You said "I don't like that you say who I should group with. It's my decision and just forcing my hand in this sucks."

I'm not telling you who to group with at all. I'm trying to encourage the imms to do something about a lev restriction issue that is allowing newbs to scam xp on Lyme that hurts new players. I'm just asking for a reinstating of a system that used to exist because people are taking advantage of it and it's hurting a subsect of the new playerbase, one that we're supposed to be direly concerned about. I'm not saying "You can't group with Surf." I'm saying "Hey, management, there is a problem on this cont which is hurting the new playerbase." You're the one that's reading more into it. The fact that you are- shows the true amount of time people spend dragging the newbs on Lyme.

5. You said...

"Also, even if you push experienced players in alts offLyme, you assume they'd lead or join groups. What makes you think so? Up until 1x40 or so, solo exp is great. 1x40-3x40 exp is great in 2-3man and I'm not sure I'd let just about anyone to follow me on my exp runs. As for large groups, they exist regardless of Lyme, unless chop exp exceeds offlyme exp with bonuses."

1-3x40 is great 2-3 man off lyme, yes. But you're not gonna get the experienced chars wanting to run it instead of Lyme for 2-3 man...they'll just stick to Lyme for their xp. No high avatar's gonna tag along on a shadow keep run with you. This will inevitably encourage those under 3x40 to find a 2-3 man partnership with those off lyme, even if this means, *gasp* you have to group with someone maybe a little less experienced. Of course, your other option would be to solo, likely at a slower rate.

6. You said...

"But they do run on lyme, so it did allow people to group on Lyme regardless of character level. It works, just not how you like it. But it works."

Intent behind changes does actually mean something. When a large change like taking a lev restriction off an elite continent produces a result that ends up hurting the new playerbase trying to acclimate (the opposite of it's intent), it likely should be reversed. It only "works", as you say, for you and the other veteran players taking advantage of it on their alts, while not caring about the extraneous side effects. The intent was good for the time, but when the results change...the ends do not justify the means in this case. Just because veteran newbs are moving to lyme, it's not helping new people acclimate...it's actually cutting those people out of grouping with others their level.

I'm not encouraging change for the sake of change. I'm encouraging it because I'm thinking of all aspects of the playerbase, not just my newb that I'm defending choices for.

You said Neptune said:
"The important thing here is to not allow ourselves
to be victim to supposition and misinformation. We are always looking
for ways to encourage player growth, and welcome ideas. But as history
has shown, we cannot, more often than not, promote addition by subtraction."


...but we are currently promoting addition by subtraction...to not put lev restricts on Lyme is subtracting the number of experienced alt chars off-Lyme that could stregthen the new playerbase. These disheartened new chars then end up leaving the after they get off valk. By leaving this scam of an aspect in place, you are subtracting from the new playerbase and the possible strength these new chars could provide once they become vets. We made an addition that, on its implementation, first led to addition, but now leads to subtraction. Putting restricts back on would then simply be promoting addition, of course, in my view.

We have been going in circles for a while on this topic. This will be my last post on it, since we just have two different perspectives on it and how it should be addressed.

Peace,
Ezekiel
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Ezekiel
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